All these “unintentional” tracking devices begin to look intentional.
Build a large enough catalogue of bulk data and anything can be used to track you.
We bought “It’s just so we can catch the terrorists!” hook, line, and sinker post-9/11.
But when “terrorism” is redefined as “making people in power upset,” we’re in big trouble.
So don’t say anything rude about Donald Trump or the FBI will seek you out:
I never bought it, I was raising immortal hell then. But as a collective, yes we did, and as a collective, we’re sitting around moaning instead of doing something, anything, effective.
True, but your implication that I’m not doing enough while I’m sitting here complaining is just as well-served to the mirror.
Lol
I mean- anything that communicates wirelessly could be used to track an owner/user of a thing… Is it likely? No, but is it possible someone puts radios under the pavement at intersections to log TPMS sensors? Sure- fuck now I’m messing with my own head. Never mind.
It seems easier to set up a camera and scan the license plate for identification instead of using radios for logging TPMS sensors.
Would it be an advantage to identify a car by logging the TPMS sensors?
It would certainly be of interest to know the “where” and “when” of where someone is - to FLOCK or the government. I don’t like where this is going in my brain.
Oh, I meant what the advantage would be of tracking TPMS sensors instead of using a camera to read the license plate. I can see the advantage of tracking people.
Ah. My bad. Outside of “stolen plate” I don’t know what reason could be.
Fuck Cars, but also,my TPMS has always been me running around the car with a gauge before a roadtrip. Imagine my surprise when I find that my car has TPMPs, it just doesn’t show pressures, just the tire icon.
Wait till you see how many Bluetooth devices still do this. Or better yet, Ant+.
Your car has a series of numbers and letters on the back of it that are unique to the vehicle, and can be used to track you as well. There are even automated cameras that can do this.
Tracking a vehicle is easy, and always has been.
However, the researchers found that these tire sensors also send a unique ID number in clear, unencrypted wireless signals, meaning that anyone nearby with a simple radio receiver can capture the signal, and recognize the same car again later
Its not quite the same ball game. Sure its not great that the government can track easily with ALPRs, but this type of tracking is available to nearly anyone and could be used for significant crimes like stalking or human trafficking. It can also be done without a sightline of the car, unlike a camera system.
Yeah, it should be fixed, but still… Of all possible evil ways to track, this is one of the lesser ones.
O no. And this whole time I’ve been mailing my phone to my destination every time I have to drive somewhere so they can’t track me!
The bastards!
I’m tired, boss.
Me too.
Hey, that’s my line.
Exhausted.
My Wi-Fi also logs all the cars that pass that have built in WiFi. Kind of crazy how many ways cars can be tracked.
Your license plate can also be used to track you
You are correct, the only thing worth mentioning is when the laws were created/written it did not account for someone creating a database that is easily searchable/queried to infer all these extra habits of people.
Its one thing visually seeing someone over and over walk or drive by your house while you sit on your porch. It’s another thing to now know where they came from and where they went if you were able to sit on every porch at the same time in a town or city.
This is why police tails need to be granted by a judge, but a interconnected network of cameras at the moment does not recieve the same scrutiny.
I think part of why the cameras don’t have such scrutiny is the city often has signs stating they use the cameras and will list their locations. This gives a somewhat implied consent from the driver, idk if it holds up in court but its similar to a sign at a store saying you’re on CCTV. The sign doesn’t say the CCTV could be used to track and monitor you but its implied.
True, though CCTV or Closed Circuit Television used to be “fully local” and “closed”. Tapes and recordings were only available or accessible to the property or person in most situations being recorded over older recordings.
Newer tech now is interconnected with companies trying to infer extra information from full databases of recordings from multiple different locations all around a town or city, or state.
CCTV used to be like a security guard sitting on a lawn chair. Where modern security cameras/systems are like having a personal tail following you all day and night.
They mention this in the article. The difference is that since the tire sensor sends out an RF signal, direct line of sight isn’t necessary. You could throw a tracker up on a roof and grab signals from a block over.
The missing part may be tying that signal to a specific car, but say your car gets pulled over - they could read your tires’ sensor ID and compare it to where they captured it and bam! Now you’re fucked.
License Plates, Vin Numbers clearly available on the dash, Tire Sensors, Bluetooth MAC, WIFI MAC, Cellular IDs for most even if you don’t pay for the service.
It’s an interesting thing to point out, but we’re mostly driving around with much higher power sensors than the pressure sensors.
So far I have had success in getting my new car unable to blast out all sorts of uniquely identifiable RF except for this TPMS thing. Does anyone have suggestions on how to deal with this one? Is there maybe a specific brand of sensors that doesn’t send out beacons like this once already paired?
They’re operating on a standard and they’re federally mandated since 2007. It is likely possible to remove them, but it’s going to f with your other safey systems and leave errors all over your dash.
Not to mention the cell phone most of us carry.
Dude, my car has GPS and a 4G internet connection as well as my android phone and my work required iPhone … In a world like this, Tyre sensors are probably not required to track me.
On the other hand, my 21 year old vehicle has none of it, and my GrapheneOS phone isn’t tracking me either. We didn’t all just give up like you did.
I spoke with my landlord about removing power to the home security cameras, because they were Ring. He obliged my request, but I later discovered that he (in private) regards my preference as that of a rebellious teenager in need of a cause. I had to let that sink in… I’m a rebel without a cause because I don’t sip from the same koolaid as he does. Wow.
Does your GrapheneOS phone have a SIM? Because if so, the cell towers are collecting and storing your location.
Maybe I should’ve paid >10.000 in spares plus labour for a car I originally spend 21.000 for 8 years ago to buy diesel for for about 2€ per liter rather than switching to an ev for the privilege of ne being tracked rather than “giving up”.
I assume your old vehicle also doesn’t have any type pressure sensors?
You can bask in the glory of knowing that you’re better than anyone else. I myself aren’t paranoid enough to really care.
It also had a numberplate, I assume?
The point on this is the cars are broadcasting the numbers. Imagine your license plate including a loud speaker that shouted it’s number while the car was running. Tracking via plate requires line of sight. Tracking it in an automated way requires a good high speed camera, text analysis computer vision to log the vehicles, and storage for all of the images. In contrast, this signal is a repeating unencrypted broadcast. I could build a Raspberry Nano device that I can sit next to an intersection and capture the numbers of every vehicle that drives by. It is also just presumably storing the number and time, so years of tracking data could be managed with a gig or two of storage.
This is absolutely a threat, and I am surprised it is not actively exploited by companies like Walmart to track every vehicle which drives by their stores and enters their parking lots. Hell, Amazon has enough vehicles out driving around that they could pretty effectively generate profiles for every vehicle in a town just by equipping their trucks with scanners and compiling the data into a behavior analysis system. Every car which drives past is read and stored. It is truly worrying.
GPS in itself does not do anything, as it does not send, only receive. but even for mobile data, on your phone you have the choice to turn on airplane mode to disable communications. on your car, there’s nothing like it.
also, arguably iphones are more private than any internet connected car.
Jokes on them, those tire pressure sensors are the first thing I don’t replace. I just visually check my tires and put a pressure gauge on them if they look suspect.
As someone who has gotten a flat and not noticed until the tire was destroyed multiple times, I love TPMS systems. They save me money in the long run as the tire can be patched instead of replaced.
How can you not feel it driving? That is kind of scary that you are that absent minded while driving.
Rear tire of a FWD vehicle both times and a small leak while driving on dead straight roads. I was surprised it took me so long to notice as well, but I guess when you’re driving straight and it’s the rear of a FWD vehicle, it’s difficult to notice.
That makes sense.
Or just replace your tyres with ones with non sensor.
That said it is a little annoying. My dash is forever telling me it can’t talk to the tyres.
Theres a spy device in your pocket.
People that care about that have already controlled for that to the degree of their concern and/or ability. This is now one more door that needs to be locked.
Its good to remind people of the various ways they could be tracked as you have done, but I prefer to try to frame these challenges in ways that encourage taking whatever steps we can toward privacy goals, rather than give up and figuratively lay down and die.
I don’t think its productive to think in terms that diminish people’s efforts to try to maintain their privacy as best they can.
They discovered a thing that everyone’s known forever. Here’s Bruce Schneier in 2008
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/04/tracking_vehicl.html
Yep. I remember watching a documentary on how to disappear. Car tires and windshields were both covered, because they can contain traceable technology. This was a decade ago, at least.
Windshields!? That’s a new one
I think it had something to do with the embedded antennas, but I could be mistaken.
A local city proudly mentioned on the news that they had a system that could track TPMS sensors. Pretty much all cars after 2008 uses TPMS sensors that each broadcast a unique identifier to the car. They aren’t hard to remove, and you can buy valve stems that fit your car (0.452 hole) at any auto parts store.
EDIT: The sheer amount of replies to this post days later that basically state “This is too hard to do, and it won’t work anyway, so you are stupid to try and shouldn’t do it”, all from people who clearly have no real idea how the TPMS system on a car works, have confirmed for me that I was correct in spending a half hour removing these devices.
By “aren’t hard to remove” you actually mean requires dismounting the tire from the rim, remounting it, and then balacing it. This is far beyond the capabilities not to mention equipment of the typical layperson. Plus, your state is likely to conveniently fail your car on its next inspection for a nonfunctioning TPMS system, same as your check engine light.
If you’re going to go the distance anyway, get your tire shop to mount aftermarket Autel sensors in your rims. Using the readily available diagnostic tool, you can occasionally reprogram those (wirelessly!) with a set of random IDs and then also program your car to use them. You’ll be a lot tougher to track if your signature is different every week.
I’m not about to do this just yet, but I do have the tool for more mundane purposes and I only paid around $200 for it several years ago.
It seems most states with mandatory vehicle inspections don’t fail for TPMS problems.
https://www.tirerack.com/upgrade-garage/what-are-state-tpms-regulations
That only lists 18 states…
My own state requires it despite that list implying they don’t. Thus I really don’t think that chart is completely accurate. If you have ANY warning lights on your dash at inspection you will be failed here.
I did say most, not all. Some of the info on that page may be outdated, but obviously it would just be limited to those that require regular comprehensive inspections in the first place.
I was able to easily look up the inspection guidelines from my states DMV page and confirm for myself that TPMS light is not a fail here so YMMV, but my point was essentially that it’s more likely than not that bad sensors won’t fail someone, not that nobody will get failed.
18 out of 50 is not ‘most’.
Well crap, that’s not a cheap solution but I’m glad you commented because I didn’t know these Autel sensors existed and that you could reprogram them. I mean, this threat is semi hypothetical right now (not like it’s been used in the wild by authorities or anything) but one day it might be. Continual reprogramming would be a valid solution.
Plus, your state is likely to conveniently fail your car on its next inspection
Your who is going to do what now?
(Posted from a state that doesn’t check anything except emissions, and even then only for some cars in some urban areas.)
Fuck that sounds like a place full of dangerously badly maintained vehicles…
Like Ontario -never inspected in a region where rust will rot out frames. I see collapsed pickups about once a month.
Surprisingly, most people aren’t actually suicidally negligent in the absence of government regulation.
You would be extremely surprised. Car maintenance is expensive, and lack of inspection very often leads to people driving vehicles that should have been off the road years ago simply because a lot of states that axe it, axe inspections because they’re expensive for the driver (a lot of these states are in the former Steel Belt). In better-off areas or places where people have more time/money/equipment/space to wrench on cars, then yes, but here in my city, I definitely have seen cars where the entire frame is basically being held together by Bondo and prayer, cars where they’re running on 4 spares, cars where enormous sections of the body paneling are just gone. I’ve nearly been hit by people who clearly relied on yearly inspections to tell them “hey your brakes are failing” because they drive on autopilot and just adjust how they drive to accommodate failing/failed brakes.
In fact, I suspect maintenance costs are HIGHER in areas without inspection, because shops could rely on that regular-ish influx of cash even if it was only like $50-$100 a vehicle, AND you have the customer in the shop, so it’s easier to go “hey you really need brakes, it’ll cost you an extra $200 and take an extra hour or two”.
+1000, but you still see it in places with plenty of money and space to work on cars.
I worked at a car repair shop when I was younger. I agree that it’s not most (as in > 50%) but the number of people who knowingly drive very unsafe vehicles is bigger than you’d think.
Eh. I’ve seen enough 300+ HP cars with 10+ year old bald tires and paper thin brake discs to believe otherwise. I personally know two people whose cars have broken wipers that simply don’t work. They don’t care. I know one guy whose car’s passenger door can only be opened by sticking the designated door opening pliers, which are stored under the seat, into the door panel through the hole of that door lock indicator peg thing and then fishing for some lever or whatever. You’re simply not gonna be opening that door in an emergency. One dude at my office has an old manual BMW with a shifter knob that just loosely sits on its lever, and can easily come off if you are not careful. Gotta blindly maneuver the knob back onto its spot underneath the leather cover when that happens. He drives it like that daily. No shortage of hideously dirty diesel engines. No shortage of badly misaligned headlights, nonfunctional brake lights, overly loud engines etc.
In short I not only think state inspections are a good idea, I even think they should be even stricter.
Survivorship bias
That is actually surprising, given people.
State inspections are a racket. This is coming from a state inspector. Waste of time and money! I only got certified so I can inspect my own and wife’s vehicles. Well that and it’s invaluable at work but shit if your determined to drive an unroadworthy POS the lack of a sticker on ur windshield and the possibility u MIGHT get a 50$ fine and no points is not enough to deter the idiots from driving rolling scrap heaps anyways. Seen em before and will continue to see em weather inspections are mandated or not.
State inspection of your vehicle? Wtf? I’ve heard of California with catalytic converters because the smog, that’s it. I
I don’t understand the confusion.
What shitholy states force you to get them inspected, obviously.
How is making sure everyone’s >2 ton 100mph missile is safe to use shitholy?
If they are checking that your spyware is installed still, it gives lie to their motivation.
Both over and under inflated tyres present a significant reduction in handling and breaking abilities of cars. Having the correct air pressure in your tyres is fairly important when push comes to shove.
This spyware is a byproduct of how the wireless tpms sensors work. If someone installed a wired version it would still pass.
I feel slightly safer knowing that the cars around me most likely have a functional horn /s (but only slightly because there are more things going on in the inspection to meet the bare minimum of safety. not a high bar, but at least a bar)
It certainly doesn’t require removing the tire from the rim. I removed each wheel, broke the bead on the side that has the valve stem, pried the tire back away from the rim, remove the sensor (mine had a convenient little part you can push to release them) then air the tire back up and put the wheel back on the car. Didn’t even have to re-balance them.
If we want to take steps to protect ourselves from such tracking, we cannot afford to simply say “It’s ToO hArD!!!1!” with a multi-paragraph reply that took more time to type out than it took for me to remove one sensor. Can’t do it? Learn how. Defeatist replies belong on Reddit with all the other propaganda.
Do you drive around with no license plate on your car, too?
you can in Ontario, police stopped giving a fuck. Most plates are illegible and some people tape then up to avoid video tolls.
Hope y threw ur phone away and got rid of ur head unit while u were at it. Tpms tracking is just about the last fucking thing I’d ever worry about especially with the lack of range those transponders have. Nobody is tracking you via tpms 😂
You know that you can leave your phone at home, right?
EDIT: Also, another Defeatist reply.
I’m honestly not trying to be defeatist, I just want to convey how idiotic of a concern this is. You sensor id needs to be tied to the car somehow for it to be remotely useful, never mind the atrocious reception of them in the first place it’s just a non issue. And if u reprogram sensor ids, how will it know what vehicle just went by its radar? It would also need a camera to tie the plate or something else which means your already being surveyed. The concern that ur TPMS is going to be used to track you is just so idiotic I cannot fathom the stupidity of telling people to go out and remove their pressure sensors. Hopefully u don’t own any vehicle made after 2002 cuz good Lord when you find out about key transponders and radio frequency security keys ! Good luck deleting your immobilizer 😂😂😂
Yeah, a couple problems with that:
- You’re going to have a tire pressure light on forever.
- There’s a reason these are mandated. They’re critical safety (and efficiency) systems.
As always, these are systems of convenience, and the alternative is to check your tire pressures every day before leaving home.
Older cars use a wheel speed sensor-based TPMS. It’s not as effective or reliable but it also doesn’t emit any signals that can be read by other devices.
There’s a reason these are mandated. They’re critical safety (and efficiency) systems.
not why they were mandated.
The US and Canada at one point could hit their Paris Accord C02 ouputs just by keeping car tires properly inflated.
I managed to drive cars for 30 years without a TPMS sensor and the only time I ever had a to check the pressure on a tire, was when I knew i had a leak and didn’t have time to fix it. I can also tell by the way my car drives if a tire is soft. I also had an air pump in my car powered by a cigarette lighter adapter that I could fill my tires.
My current car, from 2019 doesn’t have one. I’ve managed to own it 7 years (this week) without needing to check the pressure 2500 times.
The assertion you need to check your pressure everyday without a TPMS system is ridiculous.
If you didn’t check your tire pressure in the last 20 minutes how do you know you didn’t just drive over a nail and get a slow leak? TPMS checks every few seconds so you know when there is a small problem. Anyone will notice a fully flat tire, but a lot of people used to drive on low tire pressure for months without knowing. Once someone knew their tire had a problem they would check daily (until they got it fixed), but many people never knew in the first place, and even though who did know often took a week before they found out - they of course have no way to know since nobody checked their tire pressure daily much less every 20 minutes.
I’ve been driving for 30 years. Do you want to guess how many times that’s happened to me?
Meanwhile, I’ve apparently been living in a totalitarian surveillance state for at least a few years now, and you know how many times that’s happened to me? I’ll give you a hint, it’s more than the number of times I’ve run over a nail causing me to drive around on low tire pressure without knowing it.
Longer than that for me. Never happened, but I do not run tires more than 8 years old, regardless of mileage.
What matters is the whole community. Statistically it happens to someone in your community. Society wasted a lot of fuel (read global warming) just on low tire pressure.
Surveillance is a problem. So is global warming.
That may have been the intention but I doubt it ever worked as effectively as they claimed it would. Besides, it will probably cost at least 1 AI data-center of carbon emissions to continuously surveil all these people with TPMS sensors, so the argument could be made that you’re actually reducing carbon pollution at this point by removing yours.
Low tire pressure is not a safety issue, more of a efficiency issue, until it is so low that you’d need to be paying ZERO attention to the car’s handling to not notice. Lower pressure actually increases performance (to a point, and depending on the tire) because it can allow more rubber to contact the road. It is pretty typical to air down to around 20 psi for performance driving even if it’s closer to 35 for daily driving.
It’s very easy to notice if one tire loses pressure because you’ll have a very strong pull to one side, almost like a bad alignment. I got my tires rotated at a shop and they deflated the tires for some reason and forgot to refill one of them. On my way home I was freaking out that they fucked my alignment because it was handling so weird on the suburban roads home (not even twisty performance driving). My TPMS didn’t even go off until I was basically home already. When I checked the tire it was maybe 15 or 20. Certainly not dangerous but also certainly noticeable.
Have you met people? Do you think that battered old Chevy is driven by someone who cares about the TPMS light? They can ignore it as effectively as the check engine light.
I am suspicious of that being the motivation behind this.
You clearly need a TPMS if you aren’t smart enough to detect when your car pulls to one side, drags, or makes a loud FWAPFWAPFWAP sound.
The fact that you’ve gotten away with it is not proof that it’s unnecessary. The fact that it was legally mandated is good evidence that it is. These systems save lives, no question about it.
lots of things are legally mandated without any good evidence.
Lots of things legally mandated in the past are now unconscionable or illegal now.
Legal != effective or ethical, that is an unbelievably stupid argument for TPMS.
LOL who said anything about ethics? This is an unbelievably stupid strawman.
indeed, you said this:
The fact that it was legally mandated is good evidence that it is.
but their point was laws are not always made with good intentions and safety in mind. that’s not to say TPMS is required for secret surveillance, but that there being a law for it does not immediately mean there’s good purpose for that law.
indeed, you said this
Indeed, that had nothing to do with ethics.
What a shockingly wrong take. TPMS is a convenience, not a safety measure, have properly inflated tires is. And, anyone who properly maintains their car, doesn’t need it
And, it’s not legally mandated everywhere, even if it is for you.
What an incredibly bad take. Indeed, having properly inflated tires is a safety issue. How do you know if they’re properly inflated? Are you checking them every 3 minutes while driving? Because TPMS is…
Because I was bored
GIDAS data
https://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc0111/2009/Session2/2_3.pdf
It concludes that even if you increased grip, which includes tire pressure variance, by 15%, it would only represent a reduction of 2% of road related fatalities, which is actually within the margin of error.
While 2% sounds like a lot, GIDAS also shows that tire failures account for less than 1% of road accidents causing death.
So you’re spending $300 to $500 on a new car for a TPMS which reduces the probability of accidental death by 0.02%.
And fun fact, most tire related accidents are actually from tread depth, not low pressure, and TPMS will do fuck all to tell you your tread depth is low.
It concludes that even if you increased grip
It’s nothing to do with grip. In fact, a lower tire pressure will actually increase grip.
tire failures account for less than 1% of road accidents causing death.
Oh well if no one died it must not be a safety issue?
So you’re spending $300 to $500 on a new car for a TPMS
Uhhh nope, it comes with the car…
And fun fact, most tire related accidents are actually from tread depth, not low pressure
So we’re just going to ignore it as a safety issue because it’s not a main cause of collisions?
Because I am not a complete fucking idiot.
If you truly believe that nonsense you are spewing, your probably shouldn’t be driving. You are unaware of the operational aspects of your vehicle and are a danger to the people around you.
Because I am not a complete fucking idiot.
Mmmmmm
You are unaware of the operational aspects of your vehicle and are a danger to the people around you.
WTF is a “operational aspect”?
I live in Canada and my snow tires haven’t had functioning TPMS in years. I do have a tire pressure light on forever, and they’re not mandated.
Cool. Did you come here just to tell us that you’re proud to drive unsafely or what?
If only there was some kind of way to periodically check tire pressures.
No one does that. Nor is it possible to do while the vehicle is rolling down the road.
Do you drive without a LIDAR? Why, do you like to live dangerously?
If my car had LIDAR I would certainly take reasonable measures to ensure it continued working, yes.
My snow tires didn’t come with TPMS sensors.
Because they’re not mandated.
Just like LIDAR wasn’t mandated on your car when you bought it.
TPMS sensors are in the wheels, not the tires. The only way they would no longer be there is if you had them removed.
1.) Lol, no I won’t. That light can be removed. Or if it’s a Ford, you can access the vehicle with Forscan and turn off that functionality.
2.) How did we ever survive before 2008? Were there disabled cars with shredded tires every 20 feet? Was it an apocalypse of failed tires? People who don’t bother to check tire pressure won’t bother for yet another warning light on their dash.
the vehicle with Forscan
I read this as Foreskin
That light can be removed
LOL often times it cannot, because it’s not a “light” at all on modern vehicles.
How did we ever survive before 2008?
A lot of people didn’t. That’s why it was mandated.
Maybe YOU can’t remove the light.
This has nothing to with me.
They aren’t hard to remove, and you can buy valve stems that fit your hole at any auto parts store.
Good to know.
They are hard to remove, and require a variety of expensive specialty tools to do properly.
You can get close enough just clipping some weights of the same weight as the sensor to the valve stem. A static balance isn’t hard to do - not nearly as good as the proper dynamic balance the tire shop will do, but often good enough.
You still have to remove and reinstall the tire…
One side of the tire. I did not have to remove the tires from the rims, and I didn’t have to balance them.
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