Let me preface by saying, I have my SUV all set up with a bed and a kitchen and all the amenities I need to camp out in the woods. I like it that way I’m enjoying myself I see no reason to change.
A couple of times I have mentioned that when seeing a doctor and the next thing I know, here comes the social worker with a stack of papers. I tell them that I’m doing fine. That I like how I’m living. I didn’t ask for any unsolicited help. And they don’t seem to listen at all. At some point they just leave me with a bunch of paperwork in a huff. I don’t understand why they get so upset just because I don’t want their help.
youre an outlier. an anomaly. you have to admit most people do not live that way, and many that do dont want to.
they are just doing their job based on the numbers, and there is no reason to take it personally.
It’s the taking it personally part I don’t understand. I say I’m fine, I don’t need any help. Have a nice day. That should be the end of it.
I doubt they’re taking it personally. A lot of people who very much do need help say the same thing you did, and they don’t know you. All they know is that you’re unhoused and refusing assistance.
I would suggest framing your position in a different way. Maybe start by acknowledging that others may not choose this lifestyle but that you do it willingly and explain why you prefer it. You’re coming across defensively in this thread and if you’re also coming across that way in your communications with social workers I can see why they might not believe that your lifestyle is a choice.
Could be. I’ll work on that. I tend to get a little annoyed when I’m offered unsolicited help I guess.
“Thank you for reaching out! I really appreciate the gesture. However I’m very happy to inform you that I’m living a carefully considered and crafted life that I truly enjoy, and wouldn’t change a thing about it. So just mark me down as a ‘Happy Nomad’ and we’re all set! Oh, no thank you. Please save your paperwork / handouts for someone that truly needs your help. Thank you again for stopping by…”
Acknowledged their time, update their records, refuse to waste paper, and show them the door with thank you.
Sounds good. I think I’m just going to not open my big fat mouth next time.
Let me give you a related example that should shed light on their stubbornness…
If someone gets in an accident and hits their head, they might have a concussion. How can you tell? Basic first responder training says to ask several questions. What we don’t ask is, “Are you OK?” because the patient will say “yes” even when they aren’t OK. It’s answers to the other questions that give us enough information to get a sense of whether our help is needed.
It’s quite possible that some social workers are acting in a similar fashion to first responders here. They want the details because their checklist is longer than yours. (There are other reasons that social workers might be annoying, as others have explained, too.)
That doesn’t negate your frustration, but maybe it helps you understand one cause.
So they might be doing triage
Yeah, because there’s a positive correlation between mental health issues and homelessness. I’m not super shocked that people in that line of work have difficulty seeing the distinction between homelessness and a strongly nomadic lifestyle. The “they seem offended” vibe might actually be more along the lines of frustration and sadness that they THINK you need help but are refusing to let them help you. At the same time, I dated a girl who was a social worker years ago, and she absolutely knew some people in the field who just straight up had a savior complex and would get angry at people who wouldn’t accept help… so it could be that too.
Social workers are typically people who love to help people, it gives their life meaning and purpose. They have helped numerous people in rough situations get a comfortable living situation and have no further need of assistance and every time they are over the moon with joy for what they have been able to do for that person.
They meet people who genuinely need help that they can provide and are turned down because of pride/humiliation. Some of those people just need them to be persistent for their help to be accepted.
It must be so soul crushing and demoralizing to have someone you believe you can help tell you to take it on the arches.
While you don’t need their help and are happy living as you do, they think you do need their help and won’t accept it. Your radical freedom breaks their well-meaning, but misguided, hearts.
I’m not trying to crush anybody.
You are just trying to live your life and it is so unimaginable an existence that it is incongruous with their concept of a comfortable life.
There is nothing wrong with your life, so long as you are happy and healthy. There is nothing wrong with their concept of a comfortable life. Both are shaped by notions derrived from life experience and personal prioritizations and either party cannot hold the other to be worthwhile without a greater understanding of the individual.
Hurting someone else’s feelings is an unavoidable truth in living a radically different path that they do not understand.
The best you can do for them is to try and help them see that their path is not the only one. Help them to understand your needs are met and you respect their path.
Next time, you can try to help them understand that they can offer nothing of value that will make your life better for you and give them an opportunity to understand you are whole in your path. Ask them what they want your life to be like, what your life is lacking, what they can do for you, and address each of their points with salient and cogent arguments that express your contention in your life’s circumstances.
If their best efforts have no value to you, help them understand that, if you don’t want to hurt their well intentioned efforts.
That does seem like a nicer way of saying it
For a lot of people it’s difficult to understand that anyone would genuinely prefer not living in a house. The word homeless does not give the best connotations after all.
You can insist you’re fine, but men tend to do that anyway. The social worker might have grown up in bad conditions with a father insisting he’s fine and refusing to receive help, for all we know. There’s several reasons they could take it personally. And men who refuse to receive help when they need it can be frustrating to watch - chances are you’re wrongfully considered part of that category.
Could be. I have been known to do that.
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Living in an SUV is often the first step to really needing their help. Housing insecurity is a quick road to pretty rough living. If you are in their system, in their eyes, they can actually act quickly and help you when the likely next step happens. Not being in the system is pretty slow to get help in most places.
There are a lot of nomads and van dwellers living in dispersed camping spots, traveling the country and enjoying the outdoors. We even have meetups. Others like me leave the sites better than we found them and follow all the rules. Everyone I’ve met so far is happy living this way. I know it seems strange, but enjoying the outdoors and not having to pay bills is wonderful to me and I get to choose solitude or community however I please. It’s a very free way to live.
Oh yeah, I totally get the lifestyle. Done enough overloading to really appreciate the lifestyle. But I’m trying to explain things from their point of view. Even if now, you are in control and everything is going according to your plans, they see trouble in months if not years when those plans abruptly change. They know how most people got from point A to point B and are now sleeping in shelters or dark corners of “civilization”.
I guess from this perspective I can see that point. The last one I talked to was actually arguing with me about it and was upset when she left, I don’t understand that. I wasn’t confrontational with her. I just simply said I’m fine I don’t really need any help have a nice day. I thought I was pretty calm. I guess it was probably just her.
She was probably a bit overzealous I’m thinking, yeah. But that is a thankless job with low pay and little success. I give social workers a ton of latitude. I’m glad you stayed calm in the face of things.
I know I sure couldn’t do it
Same here.
Out of curiosity, what were her arguments?
If you have enough resources to weather any (literal or metaphorical) storms, then you might be OK but that is not the typical situation.
For instance, she showed me a piece of paper where she put little yellow stars on all of the different resources. One of which was for $700 a month. I said that I don’t want to pay money for rent and utilities. She then said okay well here’s this place where you can live with a roommate. I said I’m not really a people person, I don’t want to live with a roommate and she said well you might make a new friend. And it kind of went on like that for a while.
Ah, that’s unfortunate. If you say you’re happy in your SUV then showing you places to live that aren’t your SUV isn’t very helpful. Having a discussion about whether you’re aware of and prepared for any risks associated with living in an SUV could be productive - either you’d learn something from social worker’s knowledge of many people living in vehicles or the social worker could be reassured that you’re not in a terrible situation.
Do be careful out there! I hope you’ve got enough cash in the bank or enough credit to recover if someone messes with your SUV.
Thanks, I appreciate that
When I find myself becoming irked by someone offering help I don’t need, it helps me to think of things in terms of people who slip through the gaps: the system that the social worker is a part of strives to help those who need it, and you not needing that help makes you a false positive. You were likely flagged because sometimes when someone is living in their vehicle, this is a symptom (and reinforcing factor) of their life being in disarray. That is to say that some people who superficially look a lot like you are in need of support, and not catching these people would be false negatives. Bonus complication is that many people who do need this help may also be resistant to support (for a variety of reasons).
Given that no system is perfect, and the error rate will always be greater than zero, we can ask the hypothetical “is it better to have fewer false positives and more false negatives, or more false positives and fewer false negatives?”. Put a different way, when you’re bothered, that’s you slipping through the gaps in a system that has opted for more false positives with the goal of helping as many people who need it as possible.
Unrelated to everything else I said, I’m glad you’ve been able to find a way of living that you’re happy in — it is a challenge when the life that is best suited for us is one that society considers “abnormal”, so I’m happy to hear about anyone who has broken into what works.
Clearly the nomadic lifestyle does not work for everyone. Many people try it for a couple of months or a couple of years and then make a change. If you’re enjoying it, great, and if you enjoy it for years or decades to come, great, but don’t pretend that everyone does. And this is important because social workers cannot predict your future. They can only play the odds and make reasonable preparations for possible future badness.
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I was in the hospital and she didn’t have very far to go. But I kind of get the point. I’m sure she had 50 different people to see that day.
Some good interactions here. Cant speak to the emotional content because I wasn’t present. Emotions are messy, who knows what happened between you two.
All I can say is that the relevant parties saw your conditions of living and recognized them as the risk factors that they are. You living well, and choosing that life, is a pleasant outcome. But they can’t know that without doing a follow-up assessment. For all they know, you’re living in your car scraping up railroad spikes to buy today’s heroin.
Highly disagree with the advice to lie to your doctor. As long as you are not a danger to others, making explicit threats to harm yourself, or harming a child, and as long as you’re following the laws, then they can’t force you to get services.
Next time, just tell them that you’ve already been assessed and were found to not be at risk. And if someone stops by, be friendly… they’re doing a really hard job that puts a lot of good into the world for a lot of people. Take any pamphlets they got cuz it might be useful knowledge. Educate yourself, etc. And keep on truckin! Thanks for the post.
Where do you shower? Do you have a job? If not, how do you get food, money for gas etc.?
I’m not OP, but a previous car life enjoyer. I would shower at planet fitness, did doordash for a living, and I slept in Walmart parking lots, truck stops, and any bureau of land management managed land.
I got food by exchanging money for it…
I tell them that I’m doing fine.
That’s what most/all of their clients say at first. Especially alcoholics or other addicts do not admit that they need help.
So maybe you should emphasize this point a little more, so that they believe you right from start.
And emphasize that you’re not an alcoholic or an addict.
It’s because most people wouldn’t want to live in an SUV. If that’s what you like though then more power to you! The social worker was probably upset because your doctor called them all the way out there telling them that you needed help immediately and when you said you didn’t want help they felt they had wasted their time. It’s really the doctor they should be mad at I guess for calling them out there for nothing
Why on earth is your doctor even allowed to share your personal situation with anyone? Did you consent to that? Else it’s a quite severe violation of your privacy.
You’ll flip when you find out that there are circumstances in which they are mandated by law to share your personal information. That stuff is regulated to hell, and rallying resources to help people sleeping rough is a good thing in my book. Maybe OP doesn’t need the help but the other 99% of the people living on their cars are at huge risk to life. Starvation, hypothermia, malnutrition, human trafficking, prison, just to name a few.
A human trafficking course is required to review my healthcare license. They’re not used to seeing people with your skillset. Also, people who do adventurous things often do them well past the age where they’re safe. Just making sure that you know you have options.
Insane. Where I’m from they are not allowed to forward anything. Not even billing information to a third party payment provider without explicit written consent.
It’s usually strictly regulated what is allowed and what requires consent. Like I said, life saving is usually the intended criteria. That’s how child molesters are caught. Are you gonna ask diddler daddy for consent to put him in prison for giving his daughter HPV?
Different pretense, if a kid is identified as a victim, authorities will be informed since they haven’t reached maturity yet, and the alleged perpetrator is the legal guardian.
If an adult falls victim to sexual abuse, they will not inform any authorities on their behalf but leave it to the person.
If an adult is a suspected victim of human trafficking the police will be alerted despite their consent. Sexual abuse victims will be contacted by police and social workers as it is their job, not the doctor’s, to offer assistance and determine the consent and course of action to take. Same thing happened here, the doctor is not qualified to make the judgment call, so they call someone who is qualified and authorized to make such decisions. For doing so, the doctor is permitted and expected to partially disclose patient information, like identity and anything they saw or heard that prompted them to call social services or police. As they did in OPs case. This is not the violation of rights you think it is. It’s actually a sensible compromise to try and protect the most vulnerable members of society. Adults can be vulnerable too.
Shocking twist: Kintarian is 12.
Idk, I once got threatened by a doctor for admitting to marijuana use. He said he was going to report me to law enforcement. It never happened but police kicking down people’s doors over suspected marijuana possession was definitely a thing that happened a few times in that town. The mayor even started a brawl with some medical marijuana picketers once.
Weird. I’ve never had a doctor that gave a shit about marijuana use.
Varies based on location and doctor’s non-medical beliefs.
Yea I believe it.
If that was anytime in the last decade or so that’s horrifically illegal.
Depends on the country and jurisdiction
Uhh…if your doctor refers you to someone else within their own practice, that’s in no way a violation
It is where I’m from. Not even nurses have full access to the patient file. Confidentiality exists between doctor and patient exclusively, that’s why I’m so shocked.
In the US, medical records within a practice or facility are able to be accessed on a “need to know” basis by those working with the patient. If your doc refers you to another specialty, whoever comes to see you will have access to your medical record. Strict disclosure laws apply to releasing info to entities outside the facility
I blame this mostly on the doctor. The doctor should’ve asked you if you wanted to speak with someone about your situation, but lots of doctors prefer to just make decisions for people rather than ask.
The rest of the blame lies with the social worker, who sounds like a bad social worker. Active listening is Social Work 101, and it sounds like she didn’t do that.
Maybe your doctor’s office is full of people who are bad at their jobs. I recommend against extrapolating anything about these professions as a whole from your two experiences there.
Good point. I’ll definitely never mention it again.
It’s clear by your post and comments that you’re living in a SUV due to your lifestyle, not due to deprivation.
So let’s get practical:
- Don’t mention to doctors that you live in a SUV; if possible/reasonable to do so, lie.
- If you must mention it, let clear that you live in it out of a conscious choice, it’s your lifestyle, and you don’t want social workers bugging you.
- If a social worker pops up, highlight the fact that you’re being buggered over and over by social workers, and that you do not want to change your lifestyle.
Beyond that, it is not your problem any more. And that includes their emotional state.
Now, on why they do it. Frankly, I don’t know, but if I had to guess:
A lot of people who desire to help others don’t really do so because they want a better world; they do it for the sake of their own fee fees, because they want to feel like a good person who helps others out. As such, they’re willing to violate the others’ agency and consent and force their “help” down your throat, even if they aren’t actually helping jack shit but being just a burden; and they get really pissy when you correctly highlight that they are not helping and impose some boundaries. (inb4 “but I have good intentions” - go pave Hell with them dammit.)
That is not just social workers, mind you. You see people like this in all professions and environments. However, I believe that there’s a disproportionate large amount of those among social workers due to the nature of their job, simply because social work is all about helping others out.
Couple that with bureaucracy. There’s a high chance that your info is in some database as “refused help”. Guess how someone who, unlike you, needs and wants help but declines it due to pride would get into that database? “Refused help”. So the next social worker checking your entry will see it as someone who potentially might want and need help.
Any social worker who violates your agency and consent is in breach of their legal obligations and should be reported to their state board. Any social worker who takes things a patient says personally, and responds from emotion based on that, is also a terrible social worker. I’ve been a social worker a long ass time and the people I know and work with do neither of these things.
Any social worker who violates your agency and consent is in breach of their legal obligations and should be reported to their state board.
In theory it’s all flowers. In practice, no, not really, regardless of country. And since you claim to be a social worker, odds are that you know it.
I’ll go further than that. Even the social workers who are not naturally inclined towards insistence ad nauseam are trained to be this way. You could claim that it is for good reasons (as some people avoid help out of fear, pride, etc.); but you can’t truthfully claim that it is not a violation of both things, because insistence is a violation of agency and consent, like it or not.
Typically, when confronted with that, plenty social workers start babbling about their “it’s our policy…”, as if evading responsibility + hinting that they do it regardless of situation.
And, if OP’s description of the events is accurate, in their case it gets worse: it isn’t just individual workers doing it, but the whole system. If multiple people ask you to do something, even if none of the individuals are being pushy, the system is still being pushy.
Any social worker who takes things a patient says personally, and responds from emotion based on that
Emphasis mine. That “responds” misrepresents what I said.
regardless of country
social workers…are trained to be this way
No, they’re not, and laws and licensing standards actually vary widely by country. I’m talking about the US, where we have a national accrediting body for social work graduate schools. Nowhere in there is anything about “insistence,” quite opposite in fact.
OP’s experience that happened twice at the same doctor is in no way indicative of a pattern across the whole profession lol
Lastly, looking at your other comment, I have absolutely no idea what “voluntary reinforcement classes in a shantytown” are or how a social worker would be involved in them, or what they did that relates to this topic
No, they’re not
Yes, they are. And odds are that you know it, and why (again: because if they don’t do it they fail to support people who need and want it).
laws and licensing standards actually vary widely by country
The principles and motivations behind those laws and licensing standards are still the same, regardless of government, so you’re bound to see a convergence on the effect of those things.
And this is so blatantly obvious that your “ackshyually” is pointless.
I’m talking about the US, where we have a national accrediting body for social work graduate schools.
OP is likely from USA (due to reference of living in cars), so all your babble, implying that said “nashunal accreriring bory in muh caunrry” makes any practical difference, is just babble.
(Surprisingly consistent with both what I’ve attested myself, and what I’ve seen people across multiple countries complaining about.)
Nowhere in there is anything about “insistence,” quite opposite in fact.
Do you understand the difference between what’s written in a paper versus reality?
OP’s experience that happened twice
Don’t assume “twice”. “Couple times” can mean anything between “twice” and “multiple times” depending on the utterance and context.
At this point you already misrepresented what another person said, then tried to pull off an “ackshyually”, then changed the goalposts from practical reality to some bureaucratic organisation. As such I’m not wasting my time further with you or your comment.
I wasn’t born yesterday.
Ok
I am sorry that you feel this way.
I am sorry that you feel this way.
How I “feel” doesn’t matter here. What matters is if my claims are accurate or inaccurate on a large scale.
What I say is based on personal experience with voluntary reinforcement classes in a shanty town*, for almost three years, interacting with social workers and the people they work on/with, all the bloody time. And then having enough insight to check for sampling biases (i.e. to check if my views were consistent with the views of other teachers, and people outside my own country. They were).
*the sort of shanty town that teaches you that, upon hearing gunfire, you should drop on the floor.
In general I don’t really like to hurt other people’s feelings. But I also like to have my freedom to decide to do things the way I want. I can see your point but it seems kind of harsh.
At no point should you ever be so concerned about protecting a licensed professional’s feelings that you don’t ask for what you want, in this case to be left alone. If they get their feelings hurt, that’s totally on them, because they’re (supposed to be) the professional in this situation.
Good point. And I might have come across a little defensive, as someone else mentioned. My next strategy is simply not to ever bring it up again. It’s apparently not a fun topic of conversation when it comes to doctors and hospitals.
I get not wanting to hurt the others’ feelings, but agency and consent take priority. Specially when it comes to one’s own life.
Can you explain what you felt was harsh?
A lot of people who desire to help others don’t really do so because they want a better world; they do it for the sake of their own fee fees, because they want to *feel* like a good person who helps others out.
–Here you’re saying that they are being disingenuous and glorifying themselves which means you probably think they don’t really want to help people at all.
As such, they’re willing to violate the others’ agency and consent and force their “help” down your throat, even if they aren’t actually helping jack shit but being just a burden; and they get really pissy when you correctly highlight that they are not helping and impose some boundaries. (inb4 “but I have good intentions” - go pave Hell with them dammit.
–Here you seem to be saying that they’re forceful and arrogant and should probably go to hell
That is not just social workers, mind you. You see people like this in all professions and environments. However, I believe that there’s a disproportionate large amount of those among social workers due to the nature of their job, simply because social work is all about helping others out.
–You see this across the board in similar professions and bureaucracies which could be true, I’ll admit
Couple that with bureaucracy. There’s a high chance that your info is in some database as “refused help”. Guess how someone who, unlike you, needs and wants help but declines it due to pride would get into that database? “Refused help”. So the next social worker checking your entry will see it as someone who potentially might want and need help.
–Here you say that I probably could be put on some blacklist and every time I open my mouth they’re going to come shove it down my throat again.
Now, I’m not necessarily saying you’re wrong, I just don’t think I would have put it so bluntly.
I would have thought that seeing a doctor should already be a “green” flag that you don’t need their help. Doctors appointments are a major expense and not the thing to do if facing financial hardship and/or the possibility of homelessness due to financial reasons. Healthcare is an expense I axed a long time ago.
In a lot of the world, doctors’ appointments are free or low cost
California, at least, has free health care with nearly the same requirements to qualify as food stamps. It’s probably easier to get medical care here being homeless than it is if you make more money that prevents you from qualifying because it covers damn near everything and you don’t pay a single cent. I didn’t even use my job’s insurance because I didn’t make enough to stop qualifying for the state given insurance and I’d have to give up $300 out of every check to use the one given by my employer. I barely made $400 each check.
It’s funny to me that in the USA the people with the best access to healthcare are often either the richest or the poorest.
That’s how they keep you from climbing the ranks. You need to take a loss for a while before things can actually get better, and you never know if it’ll be possible for you to get over that hump.
As someone who has nearly lost everything to fire that was started by campers more than once there are externalities to your way of life that potentially harm others. I won’t accuse you directly because I don’t know you but the trend is there.
That’s why I do dispersed camping far away from other humans. I don’t use campfires, I checked the forest regulations to see if there’s any current fire restrictions in place, I pick up trash if I see it and I don’t leave any of my own trash.
I’m gonna be honest with you, there’s probably some red flags that your doctor saw that perhaps you’re unaware of. You say living in your van is a choice; are you being honest with yourself about that? Are you actually taking care of your hygiene this way?
Because one red flag I’m seeing is a van-dweller making a doctor’s appointment in the first place. Usually nomadic/hermitic people (as in, those who choose to live off the grid and aren’t doing so as a matter of circumstance) generally don’t go to the doctor, unless something is really wrong. So for you to show up in a doctor’s office at all is already anomalous in the first place.
It shouldn’t be understated just how important basic things like access to clean running water can be. And you’re using the words “van” and “SUV”, and not “RV” or “motorhome”, which leads me to believe that you aren’t taking care of some basic needs.
If you’re truly taking care of yourself and being healthy, then more power to ya; I’m honestly a little jealous of those who can live that life. But if you’re actually struggling, you should probably consider taking a look at the paperwork they gave you. Don’t get pride get in the way of getting help.
I have clean clothes, I go to the laundry regularly, I have a portable shower, I have a portable toilet. I brushed my teeth, I clean my body, I get exercise everyday, I try to eat a low fat high fiber diet.
I had to have my gallbladder removed
So you’re a little older, on a fixed income, don’t have a support system nearby, don’t have a place you can stay that has dedicated bathroom facilities or even room to stand up indoors, and you just had a not-insignificant surgery that comes with, at a minimum, laparoscopic incisions, and could significantly affect the way your body processes its diet.
You may well be doing fine, but I’m not calling out either the doctor or the social worker here. Pushing you a little and making you insist you’re happy was a reasonable call.
I see your point, but I’m currently sitting in an easy chair at my mother’s house. I just had a shower, and a snack and now I think I’m going to eat some ice cream while I watch Wheel of Fortune.
Wow, I really need to keep my eye on voice to text.
Well, I’m happy to have been wrong about the support system. Heal up, and maybe view the annoyance as one of the few downsides of your lifestyle. What’s offputting to you may save someone else’s life. Best of luck!
I hope the people that really need help get the help they need
Or take their help on things not directly related to housing? A decent social worker can do so much for you that could be genuinely helpful.
I wish we treated unhoused with the same basic structure as hospice. Having a team with a social worker, Dr, nurse, and counseling for each person would go a long way to long term well-being even for people who choose to be unhoused.
That sounds wonderful, I wish we could do that. Maybe someday.
Honest question:
How do you make money for things like food, automobile costs, and your connected device (assuming phone)? I’m not trying to make a broader point. I am genuinely curious.
A lot of people have jobs online. A lot of people have YouTube channels that they make money off of. Me, I’m on social security. I’m retired and I make a little bit of extra money online. I save up money in a savings account just for situations I might get myself into.
Thanks for sharing. Glad you’re happy.
