Quote: “We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it again and again. The Al-Aqsa Deluge [the name Hamas gave its 7 October onslaught - ed.] is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth. Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.”
It is mind-blowing that people defend these monsters.
no they don’t. people just don’t like hospitals and refugee camps getting blown up
Who’s doing that?
You’ll find a lot of comments along the lines of the Hamas government and Hamas terrorist organization being fundamentally separate entities. You’ll also find a lot of people dismissing the claims in articles like this one or trying to paint anyone in Hamas inciting violence as ‘not important’.
The idea is to foster a narrative to paint Israel as ‘just as bad as hamas’ and while Israel has done many bad things, the gap between the two is massive. I think it mostly comes from a desire to paint one side as ‘good’ and one side as ‘evil’ which isn’t always easy.
That’s a good point, Israel has done a lot more damage to the people of Palestine than Hamas has to Israelites.
Over 30 Harvard organizations said Israel is “entirely responsible for all unfolding violence.”
A Columbia professor called it “innovative Palestinian resistance”
A Cornell professor called the attacks “exhilarating” and “energizing"
Student groups.
Almost all muslim student groups.
Who immediately got denounced hard by every other Harvard institution.
Mostly true, not supporting Hamas.
It’s innovative, and starting the attack when the occupation soldiers have just moved to terrorize the West bank is pretty smart.
Eh, maybe if that was said on the first day of the attack, but it got ugly quickly. They almost sank to the IDF’s level.
Blaming the violence of Oct 7 (which Hamas did) on Israel is not defending Hamas? Walk me through that logic.
Please stop gaslighting people and saying that no one is defending Hamas.
Blaming Hamas for the situation the occupation government made, which helped radicalize people and secure funding for Hamas is not defending the disgusting occupation?
You are literally justifying the Oct. 7 massacre of civilians including babies, peace activists, and elderly. So don’t try to tell me that there are not people defending the actions of Hamas.
I usually like to blame the murderer for the murder. There’s certainly contributing reasons for why they killed the person, but they’re still the ones who killed the person.
maybe “blaming Hamas entirely” would have been better, but I was trying to maintain the format of the comment I was replying to.
Gotcha. I think there’s a very careful distinction here between justification and reasoning, and it’s all too easy to get the wording wrong. Israel created reasons for Hamas to do what they did, but that does not mean Hamas is justified in their violence. I blame Hamas entirely for the terrorist attack, but I don’t blame just them for how we got here. The conservative Israeli government is also to blame for this state of affairs, but they’re not responsible for the terrorist attack.
The situation was created by the Palestinians starting a large war in 2001 and maintaining warfare since,Israel naturally refuses to give up the West Bank so the Palestinians can do shit using the WB as a launchpad.
The situation was created by Europeans deciding that this was their ancestral homeland and colonizing, displacing populations, taking people’s homes. There is no complicated story here, it’s just genocidal colonization.
Many people are calling Hamas “freedom fighters” and outright defending its actions. I would say a significant portion of Fediverse users fall into this camp, from what I’ve seen.
A majority? Well, you’re either lying or you have a severely distorted view of reality.
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We’re simply calling for the stop of oppression and genocide and ethnic cleansing, if that constitute supporting Hamas then you be you.
No, I mean people literally calling Hamas “freedom fighters”, and outright cheering them on. There’s a difference between “calling for the stop of oppression and genocide and ethnic cleansing” and blatantly supporting the actions of a terror organization.
People cheer for nazis, too. Are you going to make a generic claim that “It’s mind-blowing that people defend these monsters” as well? Maybe you should make a comment about people who “defend” mass shooters too! Let’s not forget all those “defenders” of eugenics.
Just because you see one or two people making propaganda doesn’t mean it’s something reasonable people are doing.
Yes. If I ever see a significant number of people defending the Nazis in spaces I speak in I will say exactly that.
In fact that’s exactly what you should do, they need to be called out.
Man, when you go outside some time you’re going to have your mind absolutely shattered at all the surprising things people do.
It’s a meaningless phrase meant to distance yourself from something distasteful. It has no bearing on anything but the person saying it, unless they’re using it as a dog-whistle to call out people who are saying something they don’t like, as BaldProphet is doing above.
You seem quite disturbed and angered by the fact that I would be disturbed and voice that worry if I saw a bunch of Nazis around.
I don’t believe it is reasonable, but as I said, I am surprised by how many people are unreasonably supportive of Hamas, despite otherwise priding themselves on being progressive forward-thinkers.
Probably because you’re misinterpreting lack of support for Israel as support of Hamas.
You think most people here are like that? Most people seem to be appalled by what Hamas did on October 7th. Most people also seem to be appalled by Israel killing huge numbers of civilians.
Yes, but i rarely see the latter, mostly former.
There’s no need to be defensive. I find both the IDF and Hamas detestable, and I’ve seen support for both here. There isn’t a lot of pro IDF support, but I call it out still. Even a little bit is too much.
Calling out someone lumping anti-oppression/anti-genocide with pro-hamas is defensive? That’s the narrative pro-idf keep pushing.
That’s not what the person you were speaking to was saying. They were talking about people who were actually defending Hamas, not just criticizing Israel. They didn’t lump the two together. The IDF and it’s supporters love pushing that, but there’s no need to automatically assume someone is on their side when they talk about seeing pro Hamas people.
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Did you replied to the wrong comment or something?
Looks like I did. Sorry for the trouble.
I have never seen anyone supporting hamas, at most justifying the legitimacy of some of its objectives and the right to fight for them, but not its actions; always being critical of hamas and its war crimes.
In fact, high tolerance or even open support for war crimes is something I have only seen on the zionist side.
You’ve got people doing it in this very thread. Blaming Israel for Hamas murdering people isn’t exactly being critical of their actions.
https://lemmy.world/comment/5040910
Prime example from above. And it’s net positive on votes.
Edit: Why can’t we simply agree that supporting the IDF is fucked up, supporting Hamas is fucked up, and they’re all awful people?
There is nothing legitimate about Hamas. It is a terror organization.
dismantling settlements, cleansing the land of the IDF, and regaining their land are all legitimate objectives and should be supported.
Funni sounds like gaming.
That’s not a great argument. Just because your objectives are legitimate doesn’t mean your actions are legitimate.
He’s saying that Hamas isn’t legitimate because they committed atrocities. I will never accept this until people acknowledge that the occupation government isn’t legitimate, and doesn’t deserve a dime.
Let me be clear here: if you have to choose the lesser of two evils, then the occupation government will not be your choice, no matter what’s on the other side.
I don’t understand this way of thinking. Why does what people believe about the legitimacy of the Israeli government have any effect on your acceptance of atrocities?
I feel like your argument here gets slippery very quickly. You’re basically advocating for ‘win at all costs’ if you’re on a specific side and that’s real hard to support.
I saw comments explicitly supporting Hamas and their recent actions on Lemmygrad a few weeks ago. Someone was even posting about how they hoped hostages get tortured by Hamas. I haven’t gone back but I assume you can still find those people there. They aren’t really any different than the Zionist extremists who support IDF war crimes, they just use different language to justify the horror.
I completely believe you, but pointing at Lemmygrad for anything like that is kind of a low bar. If there’s any possibility that it could go against Western Interests, the community is automatically for it. They don’t really care what’s actually going on, they just work backwards from being ‘Anti-Western’ and figure out how to support it later.
Not really.
Go back in time. Hamas was originally created in 1987 to fight for Palestinian lives and rights - because Israel government kept oppressing and murdering (men, women and children).
Whenever Palestinians would do anything back, they would get oppressed real quick (probably violently?).
If peaceful revolution is not possible, violent revolution is inevitable.
What do you expect Palestinians and Hamas to do - sit tight and die?
EDIT: Seeing your other comments to people and calling some “tankies”, just shown me that it is if no use to actually discuss/ argue with you.
So I will only leave it with this comment.
You are outright lying. In the first few paragraphs of Hamas’ founding document, it clearly calls for the “obliteration” of the state of Israel. It’s about genocide against Israel, not “Palestinian lives and rights”.
People tend to forget that one of the key justifications for Hamas splitting off as a distinct organization was that they felt their former parent organization was not supportive enough of open violence against Israel. Also important to note, the initial charter classifies diplomatic solutions as a waste of time and war as the only possible answer.
Per your genocide comment, I’m guessing you’re talking about the hadith advocating that Judgement Day will not come until they have killed all Jewish people everywhere. It’s very rough, but do want to note that there is a much later statement indicating the possibility of living in peace with other faiths as long as they are never ever challenged. But… this is also sandwiched between a call for everyone to join them in jihad and a callout to a document with questionable provenance detailing a plot for the jewish people to take over the world.
Anyone can read the whole charter online, obviously translation bias is a thing, but the translations I’ve seen out there are very harsh. There are items in there about ‘Palestinian Lives and Rights’, they’ve got notes codifying the status of women as lesser and taking jabs at anyone advocating for women as doing it just to make them look bad. There are a few random items in there that do look harmless at first glance, I’d encourage everyone to at least take a look through it, it’s not very long.
To try to justify “violent revolution”, the targets of that violence can’t be innocent bystanders.
Gong up against police or military targets, ok I can see the argument there. Explicitly massacring civilians though is abhorrent. Yes this sentiment can be applied to both sides of the conflict, that should not give either side the green light to wantonly massacre civilians.
I’m not justifying it, I even condemn what happened on October 7th. But I’m not surprised.
1948 up to 2023 being oppressed, driven out of land, homes and being murdered (men, women and children) on a daily basis.
That drives people nuts, at one time -It will just break people and people will do something. That happened.
If Israel didn’t continue to do all these horrendous deeds, this might not even have happened. Hamas was literally created in 1987 to fight for Palestinians lives and rights - because Israel kept doing, what they’re doing.
It is just really sad to see the way it all goes.
I just wish both sides would ceasefire.
EDIT: correcting spelling. Typing in the night without glasses, isn’t a good idea. I suppose.
Israel was suspicious towards the Palestinians because it was trying to prevent October 7th from occurring before October 7th were Wars against it started in conjunction with Arab coalitions, terrorist attacks, mass rioting and attempts to destroy Israel without the Arab armies.
Everything in this conflict started with pure intentions before becoming corrupted. Zionism started when a prominent Jewish writer, following pogroms of Jews in Russia, opined that Jewish people would not have peace or respect unless they had their own country. And then radical nationalists perverted it.
I don’t think Zionist terrorists should get a pass though because they originally wanted a place to live free of persecution – by your logic, they had to do that, because peaceful revolution was not possible for them.
Hamas needs to go. They have stockpiles of food and water they aren’t sharing with the civilians there, and they’re taking aid that’s meant for Palestinians. Hamas is not their freedom fighter. They’re using the Palestinians to wage war against Jews.
You pretty much took one part out of context and placed into your own way.
Hamas was created because Israel kept pushing Palestinian out of their own homeland. 4 Palestinian people died in 1987 by an Israeli driver, due to that Palestinian people started to uprising because Israel occupation.
“Hamas need to go”? How about let Israel stop with their genocide, stealing land, homes and the purpose murdering of men, women and children?
Realize if Israel didn’t steal everything from Palestinian people this entire thing wouldn’t have happened. Hamas wouldn’t have been created, Palestinian people would’ve been living in peace.
Curious question to you; what would you do if Israel stole your land, homes and murdered your entire family and friends - with the world’s presidents just staring?
Don’t get me wrong both sides are wrong, both kill innocent people. I condemn both. But it started when Israel stole land, that’s the start of the tragedy.
I’m not disputing any of that. I agree that Israel is who created this conflict and their actions are why extremists have gained a foothold.
To answer your question, I’d certainly want vengeance, but I don’t think I’d kill innocent civilians or support violence against them. The majority of Palestinians are the same I think. I couldn’t condone inflicting the same situation onto someone else unless they were directly responsible for the oppression. That’s my best guess. I haven’t had any experiences remotely close to it, but from what I can extrapolate, I think that would be the case.
I don’t see why I can’t say Israel needs to stop with the genocide and colonization and also say that Hamas needs to go. Everyone hurting and killing innocent people need to go away if there’s going to be peace.
What I was saying earlier is that while the original reason for something can be pure and good, it doesn’t justify extremist violence. Wanting a Jewish state so your people stop experiencing persecution is fair – genociding Palestinians and taking their land is absolutely indefensible. Similarly, wanting independence and safety and security, and your land back from Israel, is fair – killing innocent people and talking about killing all Jews is absolutely indefensible.
We’re pretty much in agreement here, we’re just talking past each other.