- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
Israeli officials say that everywhere Hamas terrorists struck — the rave, the military bases along the Gaza border and the kibbutzim — they brutalized women.
A two-month investigation by The Times uncovered painful new details, establishing that the attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence on Oct. 7.
Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.
Four witnesses described in graphic detail seeing women raped and killed at two different places along Route 232, the same highway where Ms. Abdush’s half-naked body was found sprawled on the road at a third location.
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. Abdush’s — legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
Many of the accounts are difficult to bear, and the visual evidence is disturbing to see.
The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.
The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.
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Fuck Hamas.
Fuck Nat Turner too!
/s
Who is that?
Fuck IDF, fuck Israel.
You’re both right, provided that by “Israel”, you mean the fascist government, not the entire population.
By Israel, I mean anyone who doesn’t fight against the apartheid state.
Define “fight against”.
Is criticism and political opposition enough? Or do you expect every Israeli citizen who’s not a fascist themself to take up arms? Something in between?
I think it’s fair to say Israelis bear as much blame as Russians for not fighting back against their government.
Probably even more-so, since Israelis don’t have to fear falling out of a window or wrongful imprisonment.
No, most Israelis are pro-genocide because Zionism is religious nationalism.
Russian civilians weren’t massacred in their own homes. They attacked Ukraine. Hamas are the genocidal ones it is in their manifesto. So no not the same.
If you pay taxes to the Israeli government, you’re complicit in the genocide.
If you don’t speak out/protest, you’re complicit.
If you vote for the current government or don’t vote for an alternative, you’re complicit.
Are you suggesting that the people of Gaza are complicit in the crimes of Hamas?
Is Hamas “the government”
The latter two are fair, but fighting fascism by not contributing to ANY part of society, including good ones like their single payer healthcare system, is some Ancap level bullshit 🤦
I mean, Israelis are required to join the military.
Those were my actions against the US government during the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. Seems reasonable to me.
Are the people of Palestine complicit in the actions of Hamas, then?
Are they able to leave and therefore stop supporting Hamas?
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Fuck Hamas and it’s supporters.
Fuck all perpetrators on both sides sideways with a pogo stick
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The video was shot in the early hours of Oct. 8 by a woman searching for a missing friend at the site of the rave in southern Israel where, the day before, Hamas terrorists massacred hundreds of young Israelis.
Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. Abdush’s — legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
That same morning, along Route 232 but in a different location about a mile southwest of the party area, Raz Cohen — a young Israeli who had also attended the rave and had worked recently in the Democratic Republic of Congo training Congolese soldiers — said that he was hiding in a dried-up streambed.
Jamal Waraki, a volunteer medic with the nonprofit ZAKA emergency response team, said he could not get out of his head a young woman in a rawhide vest found between the main stage and the bar.
Yinon Rivlin, a member of the rave’s production team who lost two brothers in the attacks, said that after hiding from the killers, he emerged from a ditch and made his way to the parking area, east of the party, along Route 232, looking for survivors.
The original article contains 3,352 words, the summary contains 271 words. Saved 92%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
But but but… people here said it was all debunked.
Most of it was.
Horrific descriptions, but ultimately almost all Israel presents as evidence is descriptions. Along with the excuse that they were too busy to collect evidence - this coming from a country with one of the top intelligence communities in the world.
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Hamas has popular support among Palestinians. It went up because of this rape-fueled civilian murder spree on October 7th.
Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank (72% overall) believe Hamas was correct in launching the October 7 massacres
This article is straight up IDF propaganda and should be removed.
No video evidence of any rape. No pictures are provided. No rape kits nothing. Just “anonymous witnesses said”. This article is a lie and TimesOfIsrael should be banned for it.
I want to remind everyone that in the secret journalist footage video of the “worst Hamas crimes on Oct 7” not a single instance of any rape being committed was found on CCTV nor Hamas GoPros this was confirmed by Journalists that saw the video.
Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.
Video footage and photographs that no independent journalist gets to see
Appear to have been. With appear being a key word that proves that there is no footage or photography of any rape.
Relying on witness statements from 150 anonymous people including probably a ton of IDF soldiers
Good thing the IDF refused to use rape kits when the entire world was calling for them to do so right after Oct 7.
Are these credible witnesses the same guys that assured Biden about the 40 beheaded babies? Because israeli “witnesses” seem to testify whatever IDF propaganda they read on social media.
You should check out this piece: https://theintercept.com/2023/12/24/feminism-sexual-violence-hamas-israel/
It is possible to acknowledge the sexual violence and mutilation carried out by Hamas, condemn those that use the fact as propaganda to legitimize further violent, and still acknowledge the suffering of Palestinians and support a free Palestine.
Many people seem to be unable or unwilling to confront the cognitive dissonance of there not being a good guy to root for. They have to deny some war crimes to make things simple for themselves, so it’s a simple case of good vs evil
It’s difficult for people to accept that someone going to war against the bad guys can also be the bad guys
Good thing the IDF refused to use rape kits when the entire world was calling for them to do so right after Oct 7.
Proof?
https://forward.com/fast-forward/569283/rape-kits-forensic-evidence-oct-7-times-of-israel/
Physical evidence required to meet legal standards for charges of rape decomposes within a week, so if rape kits were not administered immediately following the attacks, that evidence is gone. The Times of Israel reported that it is “not clear” if “rape kits were ever collected,” saying that a police spokesperson refused to answer the question.
Good thing the IDF refused to use rape kits when the entire world was calling for them to do so right after Oct 7.
Proof?
Whether it’s true or not, I’ve seen genocide apologists try to shift the discussion to rape to cover for the crimes of israel.
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I’m not on the side of hamas. I’m merely noting that genocide apologists are demanding that the conversation focus on things other than the 22,000+ Palestinians killed. From the ramping up of the genocide I’ve just heard “but what about october 7th?!?!?!??!” to justify everything that continues to happen to this day.
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All I’m saying is that I’m seeing a lot of downplaying of the genocide that is currently happening in Palestine by people trying to change the focus, but sure, great job "All Lives Matter"ing this.
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“This is probably propaganda from the IDF”
“These videos from Hamas show no rapes happened, therefore none occurred”
You need to apply the standard equally. And also recognize that YouTube links are about the least credible source possible.
What video from Hamas? Did you click the video I linked? You clearly didn’t because it couldn’t be as credible as a Zionist propaganda outlets like the Time Of Israel.
The videos from the IDF show that no rape occurred. Not from Hamas.
The IDF is the party that needs to provide evidence of their accusation. I’m not sure why you are even bringing up Hamas. Hamas denying anything is irrelevant if the IDF would provide proof. The small problem is that there is no proof which means that it didn’t happen.
Look, you may believe the New York Times carries water for Israel, but you do no favors by calling it “The Time of Israel”. Especially since the Times of Israel is its own publication I believe.
Over the course of my education I took some classes on journalism, and the NYT was the gold standard. Does that mean I believe them unquestionably? No, but they’ve built up a reputation for honest reporting, and when they fail to do so – like with Iraq – they openly own up to it. That said, I have far more scrutiny with this conflict.
So yes, a random YouTube channel is less credible. You should also know better than to leave video links in a discussion about rape without explicitly saying if the video has triggers or not. I would not like to see a rape, and so I don’t trust mysterious video links. A leftist should understand that very well.
You said these were CC videos of Hamas and GoPro footage. I think you can understand why I thought they were from Hamas, and in a way, they are. I take it they were recovered by the IDF and then presented?
When a woman says she’s raped, I believe her. When there’s uncertainty, I believe her claim is in good faith but I want to know about investigations into it. It’s disappointing to see how quickly you assume these women are lying because it inconveniences your political beliefs. If you only believe women when it fits your narrative, you’re not a feminist. And frankly, if a leftist isn’t a feminist, then they aren’t a leftist.
Hamas clearly didn’t weaponize sexual violence as the title states. This directly proves that the article is propaganda. Hamas policy is very clearly against rape and all the female hostages that were released have confirmed to this. Surely if this was a “weaponized” tool of war every single female would have been mass raped in captivity. Instead Hamas has shown to be far more humane captors than israel.
I assume the witnesses lying because of all the insane baseless accusations that were lied about. The lying has a goal: dehumanizing Palestinians so the IDF Nazis can commit genocide. If there is no evidence it didn’t happen. The IDF lies about 40 beheaded burnt babies. Which is wayyyy worse than rape. NYT just repeats the propaganda. Just think about how bad that sounded two months ago instead of now knowing it is a lie.
40 babies. Beheaded. And then burned. The IDF is willing to lie about literally everything. Your “liberal feminism” would be just as irrelevant if Adolf Hitler made up accusations as an argument to mow down the Jews.
The attack helicopter that mowed down people at the festival. The tanks and missles shelling the Kibbutzes and the IDF then claiming that Hamas burnt those bodies while they themselves did it. assume they are lying because of all the insane baseless accusations that were lied about.
I refuse to believe any witness testimony from the israeli side when they themselves cannot provide any evidence.
Thanks for all the confirmations. It’s clear that any counterargument by me would be a waste of both of our times, so I’ll leave it here. Your comment does a wonderful job of showing your beliefs on its own.
“I am a liberal feminist so I will believe any IDF propaganda no evidence needed”
OK dude.
Don’t believe everything that makes “your side” look good and don’t doubt everything that makes it look bad, or makes your opponents look good. Apply the same standard of scrutiny.
Because everyone believes they are the hero of their tale. The Trump insurrectionists on Jan 6 in the US legitimately believed they were fighting to preserve the country. They thought they were doing a moral good, and refused to listen to anyone saying differently. Not everyone who enables and supports a fascist is aware they’re helping a fascist. They may do so unwittingly.
Always question yourself. And I am very aware this applies to my beliefs as well. I regularly question them to make sure I’m looking at the whole picture.
Don’t blindly support Hamas. They’re cruel to the Palestinians as well. They hoard supplies. They don’t hold elections and they’ve violently suppressed protest.
Don’t enable oppressors who are fighting other oppressors. Both parties in a fight can be detestable bastards, and they can also be captors of the people they claim to represent. Blindly support one, and you hurt the people you want to help.
I was just talking about this article yesterday. They list like seven forms of proof in a “I swear to god guys!” way
It feels like they are trying to paint those medieval pictures of devils and demons eating babies and violating people but in news form with no proof. I just want actual proof not your word on proof
The weird thing is, I thought they would finally provide at least some proof for these claims after three months but NOPE! It’s the same exact BS we read back three months ago and still without a shred of evidence!
Like what kind of “investigation” did they do? Did they open their own website from three months ago and went “hey we can get more clicks from this!”
I wonder at what point Israel will realize that an apartheid state will always produce this kind of violence. I’ve written this in other comments, but it seems like Israel is happy to exist with this violence for the possibility of getting all the Palestinian lands after the genocide is finished.
The violence is the point to stay in power. It follows a “strong man” scenario.
- Create bogeyman out of Palestine
- Close of all paths for peaceful resolution
- Warn how dangerous the bogeyman is and how the strong man will protect
- Wait for inevitable violence to erupt
- Respond with overwhelming force to project strength
- Rake in popular support and votes
The popular support and votes isn’t all that forthcoming, though, if it were there wouldn’t be such a crackdown on Israeli dissent.
So they were asking to be raped and murdered by your sick logic.
Oh, I thought they weren’t investigating the rave bodies? Well that’s good, surely they’ll tell us how many Israelis were killed by idf attack helicopters.
Do you agree with the following statement? Hamas targeted and attaacked “non combatants” on the 7th of October?
This is a simple yes / no question about whether you agree with the above statement.
Edit: One day later and still no reply. Normal thinking people are able to conclude that one bad thing doesn’t automatically cancel out another bad thing. Whether Israel/IDF do bad things or not has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas attacked and executed civilians and non combatants on the 7th October.
Not being able to admit that “your team” isn’t perfect just makes you look like a fanatic.
teehee
Wow, you hit a nerve. I wonder why IDF propaganda is trying to bury this comment so much.
people are agreeing with me, I must be right
people are disagreeing with me, I must be right
There was a rumor/report that a whole bunch of Israelis were killed by idf helicopters and the idf announced that they weren’t going to investigate and that everyone should focus on killing hamas. That happened.
Hamas supporters in this thread:
There was a rumor/report that a whole bunch of Israelis were killed by idf helicopters and the idf announced that they weren’t going to investigate and that everyone should focus on killing hamas. That happened.
Also Hamas supporters in this thread:
There is no evidence for rape, just rumors, rape accusations are totals wrong, we want prove first.
Okay let us apply logic.
An attack happened. What is more likely to happen?
A) those being attacked fire back hitting innocents
B) those attacking decide to sexually assault people during combat
Tbh they’re both pretty likely
So you think while a helicopter is firing at you and you are either firing back or pretending to be a civilian to position yourself to fire back, you also simultaneously want to sexually assault someone right now?
Get real.
Rape happens during every single war by every faction in a war, so why are people acting like this is some big new revelation?
Why are people always disgusted about a disgusting thing which keeps happening?
I said shocked not disgusted but sure.
Nothing to see here just normal behaviour right? Wow
Rape doesn’t happen in the midst of a fight.
I heard of awful fighting happening but accounts of babies being smashed apart and sexual assault seem really unlikely when under gun fire and fighting there wasn’t really a lull to do this stuff during the attack.
During the capture and imprisonment maybe, definitely not during this event which makes the entire claim of sexual assault questionable honestly
Not at all. Sexual assult happens outside of prisions during wars too.
During wars and during a firefight is different
That is an excellent point. I’m sure it has happened during fights, but it would likely be a statistical anomaly.
