Maybe certain people should think twice about setting up an entire business model of support based on having the current company do all the engineering work, cloning it, and then taking the support contracts for it.
Both Fedora and CentOS Stream are still very much upstream. Just certain CentOS alternatives are throwing a hissy-fit/tantrum that their nice neat little “cloned distro + support” business model fell apart overnight because they built their entire business off of what’s basically (not entirely) a loophole.
The Red Hat controversy has popped up a lot lately but this is the first time I’ve seen this perspective. It’s the the actual reason behind the change? Was there a distro particularly guilty of doing this?
Oracle for ages, and Red Hat had made changes in the last to make it more difficult for Oracle (something about the kernel patches).
Rocky more recently, CIQ had been selling support contracts, including a well publicized contract at NASA very recently for a few workstations.
If it was just AlmaLinux making a free clone I’m not sure if they would have made the change or not. Obviously they got rid of the original CentOS so it might have still been on their minds. Also, they were doing a lot of packaging and debranding work to enable this that was no benefit to Red Hat, so it may have been a matter of deciding the cost and resources was more than they could justify, especially when it is essentially putting the code in yet another, third place (Stream, customer SRPMs, the git site).
There’s no way this change stops Oracle, though. Oracle will continue doing whatever they want and the consumers can abandon hope, all ye who enter into contracts with Oracle. (The fact that this is all Rocky and Alma and nobody was talking about going to Oracle after Red Hat killed CentOS should be a sign.)
Anyway point is, Red Hat can cry about Rocky and Alma all they like but if those two had the same institutional backing as Oracle they’d shut up quick. They just think they can get away with preventing small fries from exercising their rights under the GPL.
I think we haven’t seen this perspective is because it’s not a good take on things. After IBM bought RH they killed CentOS which was bug compatible with RHEL. A lot of devs used CentOS to be able to easily ensure compatability with RHEL. RH replaced CentOS with CentOS stream which is not bug compatible with RHEL. The community was able to move past this blunder thanks to Rocky and ALMA “rebuilding” RHEL in the spirit of the old CentOS.
Now RH has killed off the ability for the community to build a free bug compatible distro and instead want devs to register for 16 (free) RHEL testing licenses. No other major distro that I know of does this.
I’m not a dev but it seems like a good way to lose support for your platform. If you want to make money and kill clones make your distro free but charge for official support.
If you want to make money and kill clones make your distro free but charge for official support.
That model just does not work. For the engineering that goes into RedHat (and all the contributions back to the community they send), they just don’t make enough for that to happen. Everyone just wants to shrug this off as “Oh IBM has lots of money so that’s not a problem”. This “make it free and charge for support” model almost never works for FOSS yet so many people want to believe it does. On an enterprise level, it just doesn’t. People who want to use an enterprise distro of Linux for free also likely don’t want to pay for support either, instead wanting to support it themselves. Which is all well and good but that doesn’t account for the fact RHEL does all the engineering, all the building, all the testing, everything, and then puts that release up for use. All of that has to be covered somehow.
There was never any promise that you’d always be able to create a “bug compatible distro”. Ever. The GPL does not cover future releases or updates and never has, and even implying that it should sets a dangerous precedent of people being entitled to what you haven’t even created yet.
Rather than hearing the emotional takes from people that want to turn this into “RedHat vs the Linux Community”, I strongly suggest you listen to LinuxUnplugged: https://linuxunplugged.com/517?t=506.
RedHat is still contributing everything upstream, and CentOS Stream is not going anywhere. You have full access to the source of whatever you buy.
The only thing that has changed here is that the loophole that Alma and Rocky were using to create a RHEL clone and then offer support for it (Which is literally RedHat’s own business model) is gone. Those two are throwing a tantrum because they got to set up a nice easy business model where they literally did nothing more than clone RHEL and then offer support for it and that free lunch is over. That’s it. They don’t contribute back to RHEL, they don’t do anything to help development. They sold themselves as the “free” or “cheaper” alternative and now they’re getting burned for building their entire business of the work done by RHEL.
Everything else in this story is noise, drama, and unnecessary emotion.
One of the best comments on it that I’ve seen. Kudos to you.
Redhat develops a ton and probably wouldn’t care about a free downstream done by the community but taking their hard work and doing nothing except “support” is just cannibalizing RHEL. Don’t blame them honestly.
Listening to the podcast at the moment, it’s grim. They have a Red Hat employee as the special guest and just agree 100% with the company line. I think I’m meant to feel sorry for poor little Red Hat & IBM being taken advantage of but it just all feels very silly. I’m gonna have to turn it off shortly but so far it feels like a paid advert for Red Hat. Nothing but positivity for Red Hat and being pretty nasty about anyone who doesn’t 100% agree with Red Hat.
Wow, that’s a weird take. The host brings up several points on the other side too, and the Red Hat employee even acknowledges some shortcomings, but all you really heard was “RedHat good everyone else bad” when you listened to that?
I mean, you want multiple perspectives, you need to include someone who has a stake in both. The entire Linux community is seemingly latched on to one side, does it not make sense to bring in someone from RedHat? Why are they automatically just “company yes men”?
How can you ever have any kind of nuance or understanding of the other side if you just view it black and white like that? I’ve read and understood the claims from people that are upset with Red Hat, and I kind of get it, but I also think these people don’t really understand the value of what it is they’re using. Under-appreciating what you get for “free” is a very, very common sentiment among FOSS users (and I’m no exception, I’m sure I’m guilty of it too). But the facts here are simple; no one is really “losing” anything here except Rocky and Alma, and they should not have built their business model on basically taking de-branded RHEL and selling support for it directly.
Like I said, Fedora is not going anywhere, CentOS Stream is not going anywhere. If you are a Red Hat customer, the source code of whatever you run is always fully available.
There is literally nothing being lost by anyone except those who wanted to use Rocky/Alma as a perfect 1:1 clone of RHEL without contributing a single penny back to RedHat. Yet somehow, the narrative has been changed into “Redhat is being evil and violating the spirit of open source and blah blah blah” and somehow, conveniently, no one has noticed that all of the narrative seems to only benefit/support Rocky and Alma? No one finds that the least bit suspicious?
Whether or not RedHat is going to suddenly claw back a bunch of business from all these people that were using “free” RHEL, that I highly doubt. As far as a move to try to regain perceived losses, I doubt RedHat is going to have any success with that, if that’s their intention. But see, I can have the opinion that they’re removing loopholes for competitors who add absolutely nothing (whether monetary or code contributions) but take and “resell”, and I can also have the opinion that it’s probably not going to change the bottom line much because people who were used to getting “RHEL” for “free” aren’t going to start paying for RHEL, they’re just going to go elsewhere.
TBF someone did say stream ‘wasn’t a great name’ which was the harshest criticism of Red Hat I heard.
If: “The entire Linux community is seemingly latched on to one side” as you say it might not have been too difficult to source someone knowledgeable with a slightly different opinion to that of someone on Red Hat’s payroll for at least an interesting debate, or follow up podcast as presumably Red Hat/ IBM don’t want employees debating this stuff.
If, as you say, the entire community is seemingly against them, a balanced take doesn’t seem to be 2 people just agreeing with an employee about company policy and denigrating “freeloaders”.
I’ve been watching shitty behavior from Red Hat for well over a decade now and am not a fan of the company but I’m happy to be written off as a tinfoil hat wearing relic of the past…but people like Jeff Geerling describing them as sticking a knife in his back, twisting it and abusing the community should at least give a little pause for thought. He explicitly says he doesn’t want Red Hat employees patronizing him with exactly the sort of stuff the Red Hat employee is being encouraged to do in the podcast.
Jeff always seemed like quite a reasonable and easy going chap to me and doesn’t often use his platform to discuss being stabbed, abused, patronized and made a fool out of.
Hm, then respectfully, if it’s not possible for a RedHat employee to be anything more than an advertisement and we’re judging the number of people on either side to be the indicator of truth, then I guess there’s nothing productive for you and I to discuss. I didn’t hear anything that sounded like rationalization or excuses from the RedHat guy.
Something people were getting for free is no longer free. Those people will always outnumber anyone who has a different perspective on the situation. Which is why I said that FOSS enthusiasts have a tendency not to understand or appreciate what they’re getting for “free” and everyone wants to treat open source like it’s entirely powered by community and spirit and “money” or “compensation” or “economics” don’t really mean anything because we shrug it aside.
Everyone wants to demonize the big bad corporate IBM but somehow we’re totally happy looking the other way while Rocky Linux happily clones the product and sells support contracts to NASA that should rightfully go to RedHat, no matter how much money RedHat makes.
I think RedHat has provided tons of alternatives and compromises that don’t involve buying RHEL. Again, I don’t think this decision is going to convert anyone to a paid customer.
It’s entirely possible. They could have gotten Jeff or anyone else who didn’t agree with Red Hat on the show, there is not a shortage of people in the community that disagree as you say. They could have done another show to cover what ‘the entire linux community’ thinks about this.
For whatever reason they choose to invite on a Red Hat employee, not ask any difficult questions and generally just agree with everything he says. I don’t know the Red Hat dev or the people doing the podcast but if the ‘entire linux community’ are not happy it’s not great journalism.
“Now we’ve heard Red Hat’s version of events, for some balance we will interview the devs of Rocky & Alma and next week we have editor of The Register on”
I’ve not looked at the podcast, maybe they have done this sort of thing…but if their only contribution is to get on a Red Hat employee and agree with him, I’m confortable dismissing them.
If I was IBM and my employee was going on a podcast for damage limitation, I’d want assurances those hosting would be doing exactly what they did, agreeing with company policy.
I rely on Linux, not Red Hat. In my time on linux, a decade or so, Linus has been consistently awesome and Red Hat have consistently been dicks.
If Linus starts ranting about freeloaders I will listen, but freeloader chat from IBM is less compelling.
Not remotely.
Maybe certain people should think twice about setting up an entire business model of support based on having the current company do all the engineering work, cloning it, and then taking the support contracts for it.
Both Fedora and CentOS Stream are still very much upstream. Just certain CentOS alternatives are throwing a hissy-fit/tantrum that their nice neat little “cloned distro + support” business model fell apart overnight because they built their entire business off of what’s basically (not entirely) a loophole.
The Red Hat controversy has popped up a lot lately but this is the first time I’ve seen this perspective. It’s the the actual reason behind the change? Was there a distro particularly guilty of doing this?
Oracle for ages, and Red Hat had made changes in the last to make it more difficult for Oracle (something about the kernel patches).
Rocky more recently, CIQ had been selling support contracts, including a well publicized contract at NASA very recently for a few workstations.
If it was just AlmaLinux making a free clone I’m not sure if they would have made the change or not. Obviously they got rid of the original CentOS so it might have still been on their minds. Also, they were doing a lot of packaging and debranding work to enable this that was no benefit to Red Hat, so it may have been a matter of deciding the cost and resources was more than they could justify, especially when it is essentially putting the code in yet another, third place (Stream, customer SRPMs, the git site).
There’s no way this change stops Oracle, though. Oracle will continue doing whatever they want and the consumers can abandon hope, all ye who enter into contracts with Oracle. (The fact that this is all Rocky and Alma and nobody was talking about going to Oracle after Red Hat killed CentOS should be a sign.)
Anyway point is, Red Hat can cry about Rocky and Alma all they like but if those two had the same institutional backing as Oracle they’d shut up quick. They just think they can get away with preventing small fries from exercising their rights under the GPL.
Rocky Linux, AlmaLinux, and Oracle Linux for example.
I think we haven’t seen this perspective is because it’s not a good take on things. After IBM bought RH they killed CentOS which was bug compatible with RHEL. A lot of devs used CentOS to be able to easily ensure compatability with RHEL. RH replaced CentOS with CentOS stream which is not bug compatible with RHEL. The community was able to move past this blunder thanks to Rocky and ALMA “rebuilding” RHEL in the spirit of the old CentOS.
Now RH has killed off the ability for the community to build a free bug compatible distro and instead want devs to register for 16 (free) RHEL testing licenses. No other major distro that I know of does this.
I’m not a dev but it seems like a good way to lose support for your platform. If you want to make money and kill clones make your distro free but charge for official support.
That model just does not work. For the engineering that goes into RedHat (and all the contributions back to the community they send), they just don’t make enough for that to happen. Everyone just wants to shrug this off as “Oh IBM has lots of money so that’s not a problem”. This “make it free and charge for support” model almost never works for FOSS yet so many people want to believe it does. On an enterprise level, it just doesn’t. People who want to use an enterprise distro of Linux for free also likely don’t want to pay for support either, instead wanting to support it themselves. Which is all well and good but that doesn’t account for the fact RHEL does all the engineering, all the building, all the testing, everything, and then puts that release up for use. All of that has to be covered somehow.
There was never any promise that you’d always be able to create a “bug compatible distro”. Ever. The GPL does not cover future releases or updates and never has, and even implying that it should sets a dangerous precedent of people being entitled to what you haven’t even created yet.
Rather than hearing the emotional takes from people that want to turn this into “RedHat vs the Linux Community”, I strongly suggest you listen to LinuxUnplugged: https://linuxunplugged.com/517?t=506.
RedHat is still contributing everything upstream, and CentOS Stream is not going anywhere. You have full access to the source of whatever you buy.
The only thing that has changed here is that the loophole that Alma and Rocky were using to create a RHEL clone and then offer support for it (Which is literally RedHat’s own business model) is gone. Those two are throwing a tantrum because they got to set up a nice easy business model where they literally did nothing more than clone RHEL and then offer support for it and that free lunch is over. That’s it. They don’t contribute back to RHEL, they don’t do anything to help development. They sold themselves as the “free” or “cheaper” alternative and now they’re getting burned for building their entire business of the work done by RHEL.
Everything else in this story is noise, drama, and unnecessary emotion.
One of the best comments on it that I’ve seen. Kudos to you.
Redhat develops a ton and probably wouldn’t care about a free downstream done by the community but taking their hard work and doing nothing except “support” is just cannibalizing RHEL. Don’t blame them honestly.
Listening to the podcast at the moment, it’s grim. They have a Red Hat employee as the special guest and just agree 100% with the company line. I think I’m meant to feel sorry for poor little Red Hat & IBM being taken advantage of but it just all feels very silly. I’m gonna have to turn it off shortly but so far it feels like a paid advert for Red Hat. Nothing but positivity for Red Hat and being pretty nasty about anyone who doesn’t 100% agree with Red Hat.
Wow, that’s a weird take. The host brings up several points on the other side too, and the Red Hat employee even acknowledges some shortcomings, but all you really heard was “RedHat good everyone else bad” when you listened to that?
I mean, you want multiple perspectives, you need to include someone who has a stake in both. The entire Linux community is seemingly latched on to one side, does it not make sense to bring in someone from RedHat? Why are they automatically just “company yes men”?
How can you ever have any kind of nuance or understanding of the other side if you just view it black and white like that? I’ve read and understood the claims from people that are upset with Red Hat, and I kind of get it, but I also think these people don’t really understand the value of what it is they’re using. Under-appreciating what you get for “free” is a very, very common sentiment among FOSS users (and I’m no exception, I’m sure I’m guilty of it too). But the facts here are simple; no one is really “losing” anything here except Rocky and Alma, and they should not have built their business model on basically taking de-branded RHEL and selling support for it directly.
Like I said, Fedora is not going anywhere, CentOS Stream is not going anywhere. If you are a Red Hat customer, the source code of whatever you run is always fully available. There is literally nothing being lost by anyone except those who wanted to use Rocky/Alma as a perfect 1:1 clone of RHEL without contributing a single penny back to RedHat. Yet somehow, the narrative has been changed into “Redhat is being evil and violating the spirit of open source and blah blah blah” and somehow, conveniently, no one has noticed that all of the narrative seems to only benefit/support Rocky and Alma? No one finds that the least bit suspicious?
Whether or not RedHat is going to suddenly claw back a bunch of business from all these people that were using “free” RHEL, that I highly doubt. As far as a move to try to regain perceived losses, I doubt RedHat is going to have any success with that, if that’s their intention. But see, I can have the opinion that they’re removing loopholes for competitors who add absolutely nothing (whether monetary or code contributions) but take and “resell”, and I can also have the opinion that it’s probably not going to change the bottom line much because people who were used to getting “RHEL” for “free” aren’t going to start paying for RHEL, they’re just going to go elsewhere.
TBF someone did say stream ‘wasn’t a great name’ which was the harshest criticism of Red Hat I heard.
If: “The entire Linux community is seemingly latched on to one side” as you say it might not have been too difficult to source someone knowledgeable with a slightly different opinion to that of someone on Red Hat’s payroll for at least an interesting debate, or follow up podcast as presumably Red Hat/ IBM don’t want employees debating this stuff.
If, as you say, the entire community is seemingly against them, a balanced take doesn’t seem to be 2 people just agreeing with an employee about company policy and denigrating “freeloaders”.
I’ve been watching shitty behavior from Red Hat for well over a decade now and am not a fan of the company but I’m happy to be written off as a tinfoil hat wearing relic of the past…but people like Jeff Geerling describing them as sticking a knife in his back, twisting it and abusing the community should at least give a little pause for thought. He explicitly says he doesn’t want Red Hat employees patronizing him with exactly the sort of stuff the Red Hat employee is being encouraged to do in the podcast.
Jeff always seemed like quite a reasonable and easy going chap to me and doesn’t often use his platform to discuss being stabbed, abused, patronized and made a fool out of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF5pyVUQBH8
In light of the community response to the Red Hat situation that podcast really did feel like a marketing piece from Red Hat.
Things are getting entertaining though as Oracle have indeed, as hoped, stepped up to question Red Hat’s moral ethics 😂 https://www.theregister.com/2023/07/10/oracle_ibm_rhel_code/
Hm, then respectfully, if it’s not possible for a RedHat employee to be anything more than an advertisement and we’re judging the number of people on either side to be the indicator of truth, then I guess there’s nothing productive for you and I to discuss. I didn’t hear anything that sounded like rationalization or excuses from the RedHat guy.
Something people were getting for free is no longer free. Those people will always outnumber anyone who has a different perspective on the situation. Which is why I said that FOSS enthusiasts have a tendency not to understand or appreciate what they’re getting for “free” and everyone wants to treat open source like it’s entirely powered by community and spirit and “money” or “compensation” or “economics” don’t really mean anything because we shrug it aside.
Everyone wants to demonize the big bad corporate IBM but somehow we’re totally happy looking the other way while Rocky Linux happily clones the product and sells support contracts to NASA that should rightfully go to RedHat, no matter how much money RedHat makes.
I think RedHat has provided tons of alternatives and compromises that don’t involve buying RHEL. Again, I don’t think this decision is going to convert anyone to a paid customer.
It’s entirely possible. They could have gotten Jeff or anyone else who didn’t agree with Red Hat on the show, there is not a shortage of people in the community that disagree as you say. They could have done another show to cover what ‘the entire linux community’ thinks about this.
For whatever reason they choose to invite on a Red Hat employee, not ask any difficult questions and generally just agree with everything he says. I don’t know the Red Hat dev or the people doing the podcast but if the ‘entire linux community’ are not happy it’s not great journalism.
“Now we’ve heard Red Hat’s version of events, for some balance we will interview the devs of Rocky & Alma and next week we have editor of The Register on”
I’ve not looked at the podcast, maybe they have done this sort of thing…but if their only contribution is to get on a Red Hat employee and agree with him, I’m confortable dismissing them.
If I was IBM and my employee was going on a podcast for damage limitation, I’d want assurances those hosting would be doing exactly what they did, agreeing with company policy.
I rely on Linux, not Red Hat. In my time on linux, a decade or so, Linus has been consistently awesome and Red Hat have consistently been dicks.
If Linus starts ranting about freeloaders I will listen, but freeloader chat from IBM is less compelling.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=kF5pyVUQBH8
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
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Good bot