Me not going quietly to the death camps is me being selfish and rich according to you, got it. Real ally. =P

There was no policy difference between Harris and Biden on the genocide

The policy difference was Harris wants to end the war.

you’re going to bat for.

I want people to live free or die trying. You want to be morally pure.

It does not matter how big a majority Democrats get. They find the no votes. It’s how they killed the public option when they had a supermajority.

They managed to get to exactly 60 votes with independents twice. That’s how Joe Lieberman was able to kill the public option by threatening a filibuster. He fits the white moderate description to a T. It wouldn’t fair to do it without the Republicans. The Democrats are neoliberals, institutionalists. It only took one vote to kill the public option. They of course weren’t willing to enact systemic change to get results. I am aware. This is what I’m arguing.

Our refusal to fix it is part of how we got here. And things will continue to get worse if we don’t take steps to fix it.

They were successful at doing the party’s work. There are always just enough Manchins.

Neat conspiracy theory. Manchin owns a coal company. Sinema was bought. The Democratic Party had to work around the interests of elites, which is another reason why we need wealth redistribution.

No, the far-right exists because of late-stage capitalism and over 40 years of neoliberalism pushed by both mainstream parties since Regan. The Democrats lost in large part because of their refusal to adopt a populist narrative. They didn’t go left enough. But refusing to vote for them or espousing accelerationist rhetoric because of that is self-defeating, harms minorities, and opens to the door to devastating climate change scenarios.

And oh shucky dern, his hands were always conveniently tied. Except when it came time to sell weapons for genocide.

You don’t actually care about minorities. Even more people would dead by now under four years of Trump. That’s immaterial to you.

Democrats consider minorities expendable in their unending quest for Republican votes.

So do you. Except you want moral victory over the Democrats.

No, I’m one of the trans people you use in your pursuit of moral victories over the Democrats.

Biden taking credit for the work of rail workers whose right to strike he opposed is rich.

But like he did help them though.

You want solidarity in one direction only. You want the left to worship the Democrats no matter who they throw under the bus.

No, I want people to actually care about minorities instead of virtue signaling. I’m not interested in being currency in your game of moral purity with the Democrats.

You already got your actual victory over the left. You just want critics to shut up about it.

You got your victory over the Democrats at the expense of minorities, but you want 2026 and 2028 too. Well, Republicans might not even give us those elections or an opposition party at all now, we’ll find out.

What power? The left, in your estimation, has only the power to lovingly smooch the ass of the center as they move to the right and ONLY the right.

We have the power to stop fascists from taking power, killing people, and destroying the environment. We can even educate people and co-opt the Democratic Party. I recommend you read what I wrote.

THEY. SUPPORTED. GENOCIDE.

Biden supported genocide. Members of his own administration pushed back against him in open letters. You don’t care about the Palestinians. Genocide is a word you can type in all caps that you think will win you arguments on the internet. It holds no material implications with you whatsoever or you would be railing against Trump’s promise of indefinite genocide.

As someone closer to the chopping block than I would like, I am no longer phased by that bullshit. I’ve got the right screaming at me that they want me dead, and I’ve got people like you on the left screaming at me to be silent as they drag me the rest of the way there. The Palestinians are worse off now because of people like you and your virtue signaling and so is everyone else.

Your vote is appreciated. Your rhetoric is not. We don’t live in a moral universe. This universe is physics based. You acting in a way that is consistent with your subjective moral values isn’t going to help anyone. In fact, it’s going to let Republicans and other fascists all over the world run right over the people you claim to care about. Learn to analyze strategies based on their utility. edit: typo

The Democrats are the tool we have at our disposal. I intended to use that tool for as much as it can be used for. Help me.

We do have this power. We elected Joe Biden in 2020. Your argument pretends we don’t at the expense of minorities and our ability to prevent the worst outcomes of climate change.

No, it’s a problem for the people empowering the right by refusing to vote for the leaning right of center, neoliberal Democrats. People are attempting to get a moral victory over the Democrats by refusing to vote for them. This strategy makes minorities the cost of doing business.

Look, I don’t know if you guys haven’t been paying attention

I’ve been talking to people about climate change on this site.

(which it really didn’t in the long run did it?)

If we give up before we succeed then that’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. The Democrats are neoliberals. They aren’t going to solve our problems. But them being in power will give us the time to educate people and co-opt their party.

I give my argument about what that involves in more detail in this same comment section here: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/11577918

I’m not.

You are. I even gave the receipts. They were different, but people on the left didn’t want to hear it.

Democrats are great at promising shit they have no intention of doing and then gleefully announcing that their hands are tied.

That’s what a refusal to remove the filibuster and a razor thin majority will do. Manchin and Sinema were devastatingly effective in their obstruction. That’s what a systemic issue can do in a nutshell. With the Senate, a tiny minority can overturn the will of the majority. Our refusal to fix it is part of how we got here. And things will continue to get worse if we don’t take steps to fix it.

If your arguments actually referenced mine in any meaningful way you would know I have addressed these points in this comment section multiple times. As it stands, a casual refutation of your arguments is now sufficient. edit: typo

Democrats have no concept of solidarity. None.

Democrats have only recently been openly favorable to gay people within the last decade. Minorities have been using the Democrats to shift things to the left in this country for decades before that.

They just haven’t thrown you under the bus yet, but they’ve let you know that they will. Their candidates have been using the Republican “boys in girls’ sports” hatred in their campaign ads.

I’m aware of the messaging. That’s still not the same as a ban on gender affirming care, removal of employment protections, and the rounding up of homeless people.

Rail workers

Biden actually helped rail workers. He should have stuck with them from the start and done more, but it’s better than nothing.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155763336/freight-rail-workers-union-paid-sick-leave-bernie-sanders-csx

The people who I would have expected solidarity from is the left. But instead I am constantly confronted by people who want moral victory over the Democrats. In this arrangement, I am the ball. Instead of kicking me, how about we leverage power to help people.

Vote for Democrats in elections not because they will fix our problems, stand with us, or even do what we want, but because it is how we demonstrate power to the fascists. It’s how we protect the people that Republicans want to harm and kill. It’s how we buy time to get a populist movement to co-opt the Democratic Party.

The would in a heartbeat if they thought they could get one Republican vote for doing so.

Again, don’t lie. The Democratic Party can of course move that far, but they have yet to do so.

Neoliberals ARE our problem.

Neoliberalism is the problem. Neoliberals can be tomorrow’s socialists. But we have to put in the work and educate people. My argument already refuted this point, I recommend reading it.

I read it. Democrats will keep playing the left for fools and moving to the right, no matter what happens.

No Bernie’s campaign and Warren’s campaign drove Biden to the left on a whole host of issues, including labor unions.

There was no daylight between her and Biden on Netanyahu’s genocide.

Don’t lie.

This comment said it best and lists calls for a ceasefire from Harris.

https://lemmy.world/comment/13069715

She’s taken a stance, multiple times. The left doesn’t want to hear it.

March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas

July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315

September - https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/harris-trump-presidential-debate-election-2024/card/harris-calls-for-ceasefire-in-gaza-while-trump-claims-she-hates-israel--isokhfqmy6EgRGrUOSuK

Harris promised to do everything in her power to end the war in Gaza.

“This year has been difficult, given the scale of death and destruction in Gaza and given the civilian casualties and displacement in Lebanon, it is devastating. And as president, I will do everything in my power to end the war in Gaza, to bring home the hostages, end the suffering in Gaza, ensure Israel is secure, and ensure the Palestinian people can realise their right to dignity, freedom, security and self-determination,” Harris said to applause during a rally in East Lansing city of Michigan, home to 200,000 Arab Americans.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/4/harris-says-will-end-gaza-war-in-final-election-appeal-to-arab-americans

Unlike Biden, Harris was not a life long Zionist.

When Joe Biden met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his war cabinet during his visit to Israel, the U.S. president assured them: “I don’t believe you have to be a Jew to be a Zionist, and I am a Zionist.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/

Harris wasn’t perfect. And that was simply not good enough for some people who didn’t want to risk their hands getting dirty. Even if it meant the Palestinians becoming the cost of doing business.

I voted for Harris and the election is over. That doesn’t mean I’m going to pretend that she wasn’t as committed to Netanyahu’s genocide as Biden was.

Good for you. I appreciate it. No need to spread propaganda though.

No, I mean populist. Populism is what is popular right now.

https://www.wordnik.com/words/populism

A political philosophy supporting the rights and power of the people in their struggle against the privileged elite.

Why must one of those parties be the Democrats? I don’t see no fucking Whigs around, do you?

Because unlike the Wigs, the Democrats are not divide over slavery. They can just move to the right on contemporary issues as Chris Murphy details here.

Democrats won’t reduce any harm.

Hi, I’m a trans person. I’m not the most at risk trans person since I’m pre-transition, but it’s definitely a case of they would if they could. I would not like to be murdered in a death camp please. Like if Democrats can’t get trans messaging right, because they suck at winning, fine. At least they aren’t trying to completely ostracize me from society and make me dig my own grave. I hope that gives a different perspective on this.

Trump tried once and it worked. Neoliberal ideas are entrenched in the minds of Americans. Neoliberalism only allows change to the people in charge of systems as it asserts, incorrectly, that our institutions are flawless. Since neoliberals only consider changing people, it is much easier for a fascist to convince a neoliberal to change the people in society. Where as it is much harder for a progressive or a socialist to convince a neoliberal to enact systemic change or redistribute wealth respectively.

In short, people with neoliberal ideas in their head need to fully internalize neoliberalism as a scam.

Abandoning the Democrats will not result in them being replaced. They will continue to exist by moving further to the right, as Democrats like Chris Murphy have already proposed.

Starting a successful third party is mathematically impossible under a FPTP system. Third party candidates can only be spoiler candidates.

The Democratic Party is the party progressives and socialists are going to want to co-opt with a populist candidate. Like Bernie tried to do and Trump did to the Republicans.

This is the key part I recommend you read.

Also, this is off topic, but Harris did pledge to end the war. It was in the news. She called for a ceasefire at least three times. If you care about the Palestinians, then voting for the party that wants to end the war is more useful than allowing the party that wants Israel to finish the job to take power.

Then the Democratic Party had best make sure that progressives have no reason to split off and form their own party, huh?

The FPTP voting system ensures that they do not have a reason.

Why does it always fall to progressives to get behind Democrats and never the other way around?

The FPTP voting system and entrenchment of neoliberalism in the minds of the American public for over 40 years from both mainstream political parties starting with Regan. This is may be the case for western countries and democracies more broadly as well. Currently, neoliberal ideas cause a contradiction when a person encounters progressive or socialist ideas. Along the lines of:

Why would we fix our institutions if they are flawless? What’s the hurry to solve our problems if we are at the end of history?

Some useful and correct resolutions of these contradictions are:

Our institutions are flawed because they were made by us, flawed humans. The time to advert climate change, fix systemic inequalities, the reduce the wealth gap is now. Incremental changes will run out the clock, as they don’t address the root causes. There will be hundreds of millions if not billions of causalities unless these issues are addressed sooner rather than later.

Neoliberal ideas must be pulled from the minds of Americans like a weed. Or like one of those radishes in Super Mario Bros 2. Then people will be able to embrace ideas like systemic change to institutions and wealth redistribution from the rich to everyone else.

When asked about socialism, if a person responds with ‘socialism doesn’t work’ or ‘the Soviet Union collapsed’ those are the tells that a person needs to full internalize neoliberalism as a scam.

And maybe a history lesson about how the Soviet Union was actually an authoritarian communist dictatorship and not a socialist country. The government owned the means of the production, not the people, and the government wasn’t representative of the people.

Oh thank god Democrats don’t throw vulnerable populations under the bus every chance they get.

It’s better than the Democrats intentionally murdering people in camps. Neoliberals in office aren’t going to solve our problems, but it gives us time to do the work to solve them. Like educating people and co-opting the Democratic Party in one of their primaries. Like Trump did to the Republicans and Bernie tried to do to the Democrats.

There already are two. We must co-opt one with a populist candidate. The Republican Party was already hijacked by Trump. That leaves the Democratic Party.