That isn’t even a reliable indicator, and if it comes up, it is a discussion between the patient and the doctor and no one else. We have the language to be specific. Besides, doctors don’t even know what to do with trans people regardless of gender or surgeries because all medical research on the topic has been blocked, erased, or burned by knuckledraggers
(MTF) When I go to doctors I have to explain to them that if they run my bloodwork as Male, every single damn metric on it is going to be flashing bright red. When it’s run as Female, I can get actual data out of it. Also guess who you go to if you have titty problems.
Yes, and the language for that is “biological sex.” If you go to the doctor, they will ask you for your biological sex.
“Biological sex” is poor language because it doesn’t actually provide any useful information. It says nothing about my hormone levels, it says nothing about my fat distribution, it says nothing about my (in)ability to have kids, it says nothing about my dose requirements, it says nothing about my genitals, it says nothing about my medical history, it says nothing about my BMI, it masks certain cancer risks, it has never actually achieved anything useful at the doctor’s office. All it does is placate transphobes and cause bureaucratic headaches.
If a medical form needs to know if I can get pregnant, the correct language is “are you able to get pregnant”. It’s not transphobic to ask that in a medical context, if anything it’s expected. It is transphobic to assume a trans person can’t answer that truthfully. Besides, the question also covers cis women who can’t get pregnant and trans men who can.
Doctors don’t immediately get amnesia when something gets defunded … But claiming that doctors suddenly don’t know what to do is a hyperbole that misses the actual issue.
Yes, they literally do seemingly get amnesia. One of the main complaints we have about doctors is that they dismiss every concern by blaming it on us being trans. I’ve heard it described as “trans broken leg syndrome”. It’s a similar issue to what cis women face, almost like it’s a systematic issue that affects anyone who isn’t a cis man.
That should all be taken into account, of course, but pretending that “biological sex” is useless in medical contexts is an ignorant take.
This is contradictory. Trans people already face discrimination and confusion from doctors on the norm. Eg: I’ve even had issues with my ophthalmologist, as if being trans has any effect whatsoever on my eyes. A single binary “biological sex” marker erases all the nuance involved and strips us of the language needed to properly convey it.
And besides, if “biological sex” is such a bogus concept, then what do we even contrast “gender” with in the first place?
Individual physical characteristics. Call it “Sex” and leave it open ended for all I care. It’s the enforcement of a strict binary, removal of agency, and purposeful ignorance of modern science that I take issue with - all while hiding under the term “biological”. It is for those reasons that it is often used as a dogwhistle.
Finally, your persistent sealioning only contributes to the problem that no one ever fucking listens to trans people. We are a tiny and very vulnerable minority who are constantly being drowned out in a sea of cis voices that think they know the trans experience better than us (eg: when was the last time you saw NYT quote a trans person?) You have easily typed out more than any trans person in the conversation but have seemingly learned absolutely nothing from it.
Besides, a lot of cis women can’t get pregnant either, and it covers the case of trans men who can.
You don’t realize that’s actually more reason to ask about biological sex? If a cis woman can’t get pregnant, but she still has ovaries, and all the form asks is “can you get pregnant,” then that leaves out important information, such as “I have ovaries and should be screened for ovarian cancer.”
A field for “sex” (whether “biological” or “birth” or “assigned” or anything else) very much does provide relevant information, and just because there’s additional information that may be relevant (such as hormones and surgeries) doesn’t negate that.
And I never said it should be binary. That’s an assumption you’re making about what point I’m trying to make. I’ve never denied the existence of intersex people, and in fact I even mentioned how a person being intersex is relevant information for their doctor to know that isn’t covered by gender or “can you get pregnant?”
I’ve heard it described as “trans broken arm syndrome”.
Medical professionals dismissing people’s concerns is a completely separate issue from needing to know basic information about their bodies.
And by the way, even as an ostensibly cis man, I’ve regularly had my concerns dismissed by doctors too. It’s almost like when you never stop to ask someone what kinds of issues they face, you don’t realize that some of the issues you face, they face too.
This assumption that “cis men just automatically get all the medical treatment they need” is based in the fact that nobody ever stopped to ask cis men if they ever feel dismissed by their doctors. (Oh, and by the way, the cultural stigma that cis men are supposed to avoid the doctor because they need to be manly and strong might also have something to do with it, since most men avoid going to the doctor until there’s no doubt that something is absolutely wrong. As someone who finds that to be bullshit, and has gone to the doctor with a variety of concerns that get dismissed, I can tell you that dismissive doctors is endemic to the medical profession, and that cis men aren’t just magically immune to it).
A single binary “biological sex”
…
If you want to argue that this can be packaged into a nice little binary
I never said anything about sex being binary, so your fixation on making this about binaries is a strawman.
Finally, your persistent sealioning only contributes to the problem that no one ever fucking listens to trans people.
I’m not sealioning. I’ve listened to what people are saying, but just because I’ve listened to something doesn’t mean I can’t disagree with it. And since nobody has actually come up with a response to what I’ve said and have chosen instead to rely on thought-stopping accusations of transphobia and strawman arguments such as misrepresenting this as being about binaries or about toilets, then it seems I’m the one not being listened to. Do you realize how difficult it is to maintain a good-faith discussion with someone who wilfully misses the point?
You have easily typed out more than any trans person in the conversation and have learned absolutely nothing from it.
Why should I have to learn from anyone who’s responding to points I didn’t make? People make assumptions about me and mischaracterize what I’m saying. What is there to learn from that?
I’ve asked what terminology you prefer. I’ve asked what a medical form should ask instead of “biological sex.” But nobody responds to that because they want to dismiss it all as transphobia. There’s not much to learn from that.
And just because I’m on the spectrum and don’t know how to be concise while still getting my point across doesn’t mean a thing.
"can you get pregnant,” then that leaves out important information, such as “I have ovaries and should be screened for ovarian cancer.”
They know you have ovaries if you can get pregnant. From an outside perspective it definitely looks like you’re just being argumentative rather than discussing it from a position of knowledge.
Sure it does, it’s the sex you have biologically. The second thing you’re talking about is called gender-affirming care and is distinct from biological sex. Both “sex” and “gender” are societal concepts, but sex is descriptive whereas gender is prescriptive. You can read that to mean sex is scientifically determinable, whereas gender is meaninglessly abstract. Sex says, “assuming all your bits work, here’s how you would contribute to the reproductive process.” Gender says, “regardless of what bits you were born with but dependent on what bits people think you were born with, here’s how society will treat you and expect you to behave.” “Biological gender” doesn’t exist, just like “sociological sex” doesn’t exist. So I guess in that sense, “biological sex” doesn’t make sense, because there’s no other kind.
Biology is a term used to describe how your body functions. Hormones changing your body is biology, whether they’re natural or otherwise. “Biological sex” is a dog whistle. It is not a term used by people who are being honest. It’s just sex, or sex assigned at birth. “Biological sex” is a term for bigots to sound like they have science on their side.
Biology is how the body is functioning and growing. This is defined by what hormones are in the body, as hormones tell cells how to function. In this way, biological sex is the sex defined by what hormones are in your body. Sex assigned at birth does not necessarily match this.
Biological sex is not a term that has any meaning. It is a term invented to lend the air of scientific authority to a certain group of people making a bad faith argument. Sex is the term that is more commonly used, or sex assigned at birth to be more specific (which implies it changes and is not just gender).
Iff (if and only if) we’re using the words as their definitions imply, biological sex = what hormones are in your body. Hormones define how your body functions, meaning their biological activity. Then it follows that hormone replacement therapy changes biological sex. It isn’t the bullshit static thing the people typically using the word to mean, as a replacement for “sex assigned at birth”. That term they won’t use because it lends credence to the idea it can change, rather than something that makes them sound as if their opinion is based in science.
Just FYI, I’ve never been asked about my “biological sex” from a doctor, and I’m pretty sure you haven’t either. You’ve been asked about your sex. That’s it. “Biological sex” is a right-wing dog whistle.
It’s not redundant. I’d say it’s wrong. If biology is how the body is working, biological sex should be the same as hormonal sex, which would be the same as someone’s sex confirmation therapy is making it, not sex assigned at birth.
It is not implied to mean “biological sex” because that’s not a term anyone used until anti-trans people made it up. It is only used rhetorically to imply their view is the one supported by science. It isn’t.
So immediately jumping to “dogwhistle” every time you hear someone say something that’s supposedly in this list of secret right-wing code words is kind of a disingenuous argument and you’re just going to alienate people who then won’t take you seriously in the future.
Dog whistles can become mainstream. It doesn’t change the origin. Just because you hear it on TV sometimes doesn’t mean that’s the correct term. It was made up as a rhetorical argument to imply superiority. That’s it.
I’ve yet to have any single interaction with a doctor where knowing I was born with a penis has been helpful beyond not having to ask questions like “might you be pregnant?”, but so many flags in medical paperwork that just result from them mislabeling me as a male.
why not mention what your preferred terminology is so that people who actually care about being affirming can use the correct term?
Oh, if you actually care about being affirming, the correct term is gender. What you say to your doctor is private. Gender is the public facing bit. It’s the relevant bit for which toilets you or I go in, which is what we’re discussing.
Biological sex is a dogwhistle made digestible to appease the apathetic moderate
Edit: and this entire thread is proof of that 🍿
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That isn’t even a reliable indicator, and if it comes up, it is a discussion between the patient and the doctor and no one else. We have the language to be specific. Besides, doctors don’t even know what to do with trans people regardless of gender or surgeries because all medical research on the topic has been blocked, erased, or burned by knuckledraggers
(MTF) When I go to doctors I have to explain to them that if they run my bloodwork as Male, every single damn metric on it is going to be flashing bright red. When it’s run as Female, I can get actual data out of it. Also guess who you go to if you have titty problems.
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“Biological sex” is poor language because it doesn’t actually provide any useful information. It says nothing about my hormone levels, it says nothing about my fat distribution, it says nothing about my (in)ability to have kids, it says nothing about my dose requirements, it says nothing about my genitals, it says nothing about my medical history, it says nothing about my BMI, it masks certain cancer risks, it has never actually achieved anything useful at the doctor’s office. All it does is placate transphobes and cause bureaucratic headaches.
If a medical form needs to know if I can get pregnant, the correct language is “are you able to get pregnant”. It’s not transphobic to ask that in a medical context, if anything it’s expected. It is transphobic to assume a trans person can’t answer that truthfully. Besides, the question also covers cis women who can’t get pregnant and trans men who can.
Yes, they literally do seemingly get amnesia. One of the main complaints we have about doctors is that they dismiss every concern by blaming it on us being trans. I’ve heard it described as “trans broken leg syndrome”. It’s a similar issue to what cis women face, almost like it’s a systematic issue that affects anyone who isn’t a cis man.
This is contradictory. Trans people already face discrimination and confusion from doctors on the norm. Eg: I’ve even had issues with my ophthalmologist, as if being trans has any effect whatsoever on my eyes. A single binary “biological sex” marker erases all the nuance involved and strips us of the language needed to properly convey it.
Individual physical characteristics. Call it “Sex” and leave it open ended for all I care. It’s the enforcement of a strict binary, removal of agency, and purposeful ignorance of modern science that I take issue with - all while hiding under the term “biological”. It is for those reasons that it is often used as a dogwhistle.
Finally, your persistent sealioning only contributes to the problem that no one ever fucking listens to trans people. We are a tiny and very vulnerable minority who are constantly being drowned out in a sea of cis voices that think they know the trans experience better than us (eg: when was the last time you saw NYT quote a trans person?) You have easily typed out more than any trans person in the conversation but have seemingly learned absolutely nothing from it.
You don’t realize that’s actually more reason to ask about biological sex? If a cis woman can’t get pregnant, but she still has ovaries, and all the form asks is “can you get pregnant,” then that leaves out important information, such as “I have ovaries and should be screened for ovarian cancer.”
A field for “sex” (whether “biological” or “birth” or “assigned” or anything else) very much does provide relevant information, and just because there’s additional information that may be relevant (such as hormones and surgeries) doesn’t negate that.
And I never said it should be binary. That’s an assumption you’re making about what point I’m trying to make. I’ve never denied the existence of intersex people, and in fact I even mentioned how a person being intersex is relevant information for their doctor to know that isn’t covered by gender or “can you get pregnant?”
Medical professionals dismissing people’s concerns is a completely separate issue from needing to know basic information about their bodies.
And by the way, even as an ostensibly cis man, I’ve regularly had my concerns dismissed by doctors too. It’s almost like when you never stop to ask someone what kinds of issues they face, you don’t realize that some of the issues you face, they face too.
This assumption that “cis men just automatically get all the medical treatment they need” is based in the fact that nobody ever stopped to ask cis men if they ever feel dismissed by their doctors. (Oh, and by the way, the cultural stigma that cis men are supposed to avoid the doctor because they need to be manly and strong might also have something to do with it, since most men avoid going to the doctor until there’s no doubt that something is absolutely wrong. As someone who finds that to be bullshit, and has gone to the doctor with a variety of concerns that get dismissed, I can tell you that dismissive doctors is endemic to the medical profession, and that cis men aren’t just magically immune to it).
I never said anything about sex being binary, so your fixation on making this about binaries is a strawman.
I’m not sealioning. I’ve listened to what people are saying, but just because I’ve listened to something doesn’t mean I can’t disagree with it. And since nobody has actually come up with a response to what I’ve said and have chosen instead to rely on thought-stopping accusations of transphobia and strawman arguments such as misrepresenting this as being about binaries or about toilets, then it seems I’m the one not being listened to. Do you realize how difficult it is to maintain a good-faith discussion with someone who wilfully misses the point?
Why should I have to learn from anyone who’s responding to points I didn’t make? People make assumptions about me and mischaracterize what I’m saying. What is there to learn from that?
I’ve asked what terminology you prefer. I’ve asked what a medical form should ask instead of “biological sex.” But nobody responds to that because they want to dismiss it all as transphobia. There’s not much to learn from that.
And just because I’m on the spectrum and don’t know how to be concise while still getting my point across doesn’t mean a thing.
They know you have ovaries if you can get pregnant. From an outside perspective it definitely looks like you’re just being argumentative rather than discussing it from a position of knowledge.
What if you have ovaries but you can’t get pregnant? Because that’s the type of case to which I was referring.
Then they could ask their patient if they have ovaries. They can (and should!!) be specific.
the term “biological sex” doesnt make much sense tho
what are all of those complex medical treatments trans people can get, if not biology? far more advanced and interesting biology at that
and “biological sex” isnt a binary either, 1 in 40 people are intersex, mostly with almost no effect, but not in the binary either
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“birth-assigned sex” or “assigned sex”
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Sure it does, it’s the sex you have biologically. The second thing you’re talking about is called gender-affirming care and is distinct from biological sex. Both “sex” and “gender” are societal concepts, but sex is descriptive whereas gender is prescriptive. You can read that to mean sex is scientifically determinable, whereas gender is meaninglessly abstract. Sex says, “assuming all your bits work, here’s how you would contribute to the reproductive process.” Gender says, “regardless of what bits you were born with but dependent on what bits people think you were born with, here’s how society will treat you and expect you to behave.” “Biological gender” doesn’t exist, just like “sociological sex” doesn’t exist. So I guess in that sense, “biological sex” doesn’t make sense, because there’s no other kind.
Biology is a term used to describe how your body functions. Hormones changing your body is biology, whether they’re natural or otherwise. “Biological sex” is a dog whistle. It is not a term used by people who are being honest. It’s just sex, or sex assigned at birth. “Biological sex” is a term for bigots to sound like they have science on their side.
Exactly what I said, there’s no other kind
Biology is how the body is functioning and growing. This is defined by what hormones are in the body, as hormones tell cells how to function. In this way, biological sex is the sex defined by what hormones are in your body. Sex assigned at birth does not necessarily match this.
Biological sex is not a term that has any meaning. It is a term invented to lend the air of scientific authority to a certain group of people making a bad faith argument. Sex is the term that is more commonly used, or sex assigned at birth to be more specific (which implies it changes and is not just gender).
Iff (if and only if) we’re using the words as their definitions imply, biological sex = what hormones are in your body. Hormones define how your body functions, meaning their biological activity. Then it follows that hormone replacement therapy changes biological sex. It isn’t the bullshit static thing the people typically using the word to mean, as a replacement for “sex assigned at birth”. That term they won’t use because it lends credence to the idea it can change, rather than something that makes them sound as if their opinion is based in science.
Just FYI, I’ve never been asked about my “biological sex” from a doctor, and I’m pretty sure you haven’t either. You’ve been asked about your sex. That’s it. “Biological sex” is a right-wing dog whistle.
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It’s not redundant. I’d say it’s wrong. If biology is how the body is working, biological sex should be the same as hormonal sex, which would be the same as someone’s sex confirmation therapy is making it, not sex assigned at birth.
It is not implied to mean “biological sex” because that’s not a term anyone used until anti-trans people made it up. It is only used rhetorically to imply their view is the one supported by science. It isn’t.
Dog whistles can become mainstream. It doesn’t change the origin. Just because you hear it on TV sometimes doesn’t mean that’s the correct term. It was made up as a rhetorical argument to imply superiority. That’s it.
You are sealioning. You don’t speak to your doctor in order to use the loos. In this context, “biological sex” is a transphobic dog whistle.
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You don’t speak to your doctor in order to use the loos. In this context, “biological sex” is a transphobic dog whistle.
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No, they said “it’s a transphobic dog whistle” and you invented all that extra stuff to start your irrelevant argument. It’s called a straw man.
I’ve yet to have any single interaction with a doctor where knowing I was born with a penis has been helpful beyond not having to ask questions like “might you be pregnant?”, but so many flags in medical paperwork that just result from them mislabeling me as a male.
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theyre not ignoring it?
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no
if they are, at the time, able to be pregnant, it makes sense
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Oh, if you actually care about being affirming, the correct term is gender. What you say to your doctor is private. Gender is the public facing bit. It’s the relevant bit for which toilets you or I go in, which is what we’re discussing.
You’re thinking of gender, sex is scientifically determinable.